[tsa]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

You know, these types of replies is exactly the stubbornness that I'm talking about when bringing up this topic.

I also don't understand replies like "developer x couldn't be bothered to do y." It ranks up there with "developer x only cares about our money" and other assumptions that are dubious. It probably wasn't meant as literally, but the tone and anger that is expressed in many of these cases is completely out of place, in my opinion.

Are PC gamers really so narrow-minded to refuse trying anything new?

I think I speak for many people when I say that no, I don't want to invest time in learning a non-standard control scheme when I know that there are better, easier ways to control characters in a game. If the game developer can't be bothered to make an easy to use control sheme I can't be bothered to spend money on his game.

I guess you're on your own, Thaurin.

[Thaurin]

Why do you assume that the developer just sort of skimped over the whole controls design process rather than honestly trying to come up with something good for their game? At least that's what your wording implies. I think that no developer thinks this way, yet hordes of people seem to assume developers are lazy/greedy/incompetent/morons when something doesn't get implemented the way they want it.

Gothic had unconventional controls that many people hated, but I am thankful for it. It made it a better game in the end.

[tsa]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

Why do you assume that the developer just sort of skimped over the whole controls design process rather than honestly trying to come up with something good for their game? At least that's what your wording implies.

It felt like that to me in this game, yes. I can elaborate on this but then I will just repeat myself.

[eriq]

eek. I downloaded the whole demo and never installed it because of everyone's opinions on the controls. LOL.

[Ksandra]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

You know, these types of replies is exactly the stubbornness that I'm talking about when bringing up this topic. Maybe I'm just totally different from everybody else, but if the content is good enough I will just about suffer any control scheme. It's not like the 10-15 minute "time-investment" is really work; after all, you're still playing a game and probably having fun.

Actually, no; I find it very difficult to find any sort of fun in a game when I'm constantly having to struggle against the controls. Even when I do eventually get used to them, they're still annoying and frustrating and will limit my enjoyment of the game. I might make an exception for a really, really good AG (Grim Fandango, for example) - but if it's an average game, forget it.

Are PC gamers really so narrow-minded to refuse trying anything new?

It's not 'refusing to try something new' so much as having already tried it and found it sorely wanting. As I said before, the last game I tried with keyboard-only controls was BS3, and I found the interface so wildly frustrating (even after I learned how it worked) that I swore I would never buy a game with that type of interface again. It all but ruined my enjoyment of the game (which was actually quite a good one in many respects).

Why do you assume that the developer just sort of skimped over the whole controls design process rather than honestly trying to come up with something good for their game? At least that's what your wording implies. I think that no developer thinks this way, yet hordes of people seem to assume developers are lazy/greedy/incompetent/morons when something doesn't get implemented the way they want it.

As I pointed out in my last post, there is already a simple, standard control system for 3D games that developers could easily copy if they want to. They don't need to waste time coming up with something 'good for their game'; all they need to do is copy the system that works perfectly well in 99.99% of action games. Ten years ago it would be more understandable for them to try something new, but in 2007 there is really no excuse for creating a PC game without mouse support. Yeah, so maybe it's stupidity or incompetence on their part rather than laziness, but that still doesn't make me want to buy the game.

Thaurin, from your comments it's clear that controls aren't all that important to you, and that you're willing to put in the time and effort to overcome even a poor control system. Unfortunately, as you must have realised by now, you are in a pretty small minority - and developers really ought to be aware of this. Since bad controls are such a common complaint among adventure gamers, they ought to be researching what's been tried before and what people have or haven't liked in the past. If they don't do this - for whatever reason - they've only themselves to blame if their game fails to sell.

[tsa]

I couldn't have said it better Ksandra.

[Thaurin]

Originally Posted by Ksandra

...the interface so wildly frustrating (even after I learned how it worked) that I swore I would never buy a game with that type of interface again. It all but ruined my enjoyment of the game

Okay, sure I can accept that. I guess my issue is with people that give up too soon and miss out on something great because of it. Well, issue is too strong; it's their choice, obviously. Maybe I see the challenge of overcoming control problems as part of the game? I don't know, but if the game is even better than average, I'll just want to see how the game plays out rather than complain about the controls.

Thaurin, from your comments it's clear that controls aren't all that important to you, and that you're willing to put in the time and effort to overcome even a poor control system.

Yes and no, I guess. I've struggled with various games, (older) games that had stability issues, etc. Many people would have given up much earlier, because they don't want to cope with crashes, stuff not working, tweaking configuration files and such. But when I start a game and I see something I really like, I can't give up. I have to get that thing going to my liking or I'll have this nagging feeling. I also have the problem that I want to see too many great games, so I never really get to the point that I'm concentrating on just one game and finishing it.

Part of it may also be that I can always solve my control problems by configuring the gamepad, which works wonders with keyboard-only games. Some games have gamepad support, which made Broken Sword 3 and Dreamfall a joy to play. So another part of my issue with all this is the reluctance of people to give up their keyboard+mouse tradition and succumb to other input devices. Then the discussion often deteriorates into why game developers are designing their games for the console market these days, etc. Oh well, I think 2.5D and 3D adventure games are a perfect fit for a gamepad.

I tihnk I've talked about gamepads too much lately. Anyway, I agree that Dead Reefs has other problems that make this game less than it could have been.

[Ksandra]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

Yes and no, I guess. I've struggled with various games, (older) games that had stability issues, etc. Many people would have given up much earlier, because they don't want to cope with crashes, stuff not working, tweaking configuration files and such. But when I start a game and I see something I really like, I can't give up. I have to get that thing going to my liking or I'll have this nagging feeling.

You clearly have far more time and/or patience than me then. These days I barely have time to play even stable, well-designed games, let alone ones with serious bugs or stability issues. My lazy student days are long gone, unfortunately.

[Thaurin]

I'm not saying it's very different for me, but the most fun for me is usually in the first few hours of playing a new game, anyway. So I get it to run the way I want, but half-way when the gameplay gets familiar, I start losing interest a lot of the time. And it's not that the game sucks or anything! I just lose an aspect of exploration, finding stuff out about how things work. Yeah, sometimes I miss the days of playing just one game and getting stuck until I finally find the solution...

[Henke]

Originally Posted by crabapple

You're supposed to be able to map the keys in the game itself.
Is this allowed in the demo?
Or does the problem with the keyboard run deeper than something that mapping the keys can straighten out?

It's deeper, MUCH deeper. One actionkey, another to look, a third to go in to examination mode and so on. What did they think when they designed this game?

[Thaurin]

It's not really that strange to have different keys for Look and Action, though. Examination mode seems to me to be just a first-person view toggle. I think I prefer different action types on different keys, but there is something to be said about context sensitivity and picking the best-fitting action with one click like the later LucasArts games used to do...

[Henke]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

It's not really that strange to have different keys for Look and Action, though. Examination mode seems to me to be just a first-person view toggle. I think I prefer different action types on different keys, but there is something to be said about context sensitivity and picking the best-fitting action with one click like the later LucasArts games used to do...

Not that strange? You have like 10 keys to remember instead of say 4. How do you move in examination mode anyway? If I clicked on some buttons I have set for other things I discovered I could move left, right and up but I couldn't find down (and I believe I hit all 10 buttons).

[Nelza]

Imagine what people would've missed if they stopped/avoided playing 'Grim Fandango' because of the controls.

[KamisoriX]

funny, almost everyone seems to hate the controll. I don't like it either but for me i thought the graphics were horrible.

[Henke]

Originally Posted by Nelza

Imagine what people would've missed if they stopped/avoided playing 'Grim Fandango' because of the controls.

Since there was nothing wrong with those controls it seems an odd thing to do.

[starla9]

I am very used to keyboard-controlled games. But when I started this game, I got stuck in the inventory (stupid me, pushing the arrow buttons first to move, how illogical, no?) and could not get to the main menu to LOOK UP the controls until I figured out how to exit the inventory. >.> I looked up and practiced with the controls. And I fought with them. As far as I'm concerned, these controls aren't a matter of skill, they/the game are just UNRESPONSIVE. The last straw was when I was twirling in circles on the ship trying to move around to solve a puzzle. I did not succeed. I really really tried. The story and premise looked awesome. I wanted to finish the demo so much! But the controls are beyond "getting used to". They're unresponsive, and so frustrating that the game felt unplayable at times. That's not good. NOT good. I've never felt this way about game controls. I play point and click games, keyboard games, console games, and am quite willing to spend a few minutes adapting myself to a new interface, and if the controls are a little sluggish, you work with it. I want to play this game, but if the controls stay the way they are, it doesn't even seem possible to play. :-(

[Owskie]

maybe we will get a patch

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by Henke

It's deeper, MUCH deeper. One actionkey, another to look, a third to go in to examination mode and so on. What did they think when they designed this game?

If it was just a matter of a lot of keys, it would be workable, but...

Originally Posted by starla9

I am very used to keyboard-controlled games. But when I started this game, I got stuck in the inventory (stupid me, pushing the arrow buttons first to move, how illogical, no?) and could not get to the main menu to LOOK UP the controls until I figured out how to exit the inventory. >.> I looked up and practiced with the controls. And I fought with them. As far as I'm concerned, these controls aren't a matter of skill, they/the game are just UNRESPONSIVE. The last straw was when I was twirling in circles on the ship trying to move around to solve a puzzle. I did not succeed. I really really tried. The story and premise looked awesome. I wanted to finish the demo so much! But the controls are beyond "getting used to". They're unresponsive, and so frustrating that the game felt unplayable at times. That's not good. NOT good. I've never felt this way about game controls. I play point and click games, keyboard games, console games, and am quite willing to spend a few minutes adapting myself to a new interface, and if the controls are a little sluggish, you work with it. I want to play this game, but if the controls stay the way they are, it doesn't even seem possible to play. :-(

Did you try it with a gamepad? It sounds like they might have designed it for a gamepad, with inventory controlled by your right hand and movement by your left.

[starla9]

But would it really make a difference whether your right and left hand are pushing buttons on a keyboard on or on a gamepad? I dunno, maybe you could move better with an analog stick. As it was, having four keys to move didn't work well. I've played other games with the same movement controls, just the four keys, no mouse involved, but the navigation paths in this game (not that I got far, I'm mainly speaking of the boat in the demo) and the game response to my attempts to turn and run were infuriatingly slow and confusing. I can't remember if Grim Fandango had a similar 4-button movement thing, but I don't remember it feeling so clunky. On the boat, it started to feel downright unplayable.
And in agreement with other posters, the slight up-and-down motion when you run is a little nausea-inducing and makes it harder to navigate.

A shame, because in terms of story and atmosphere, this is totally my kind of game. I was willing to forgive a lot if the story and puzzles were good. From the reviews I've read, they are, it's just that the controls hinder actually being able to play the game without tearing your hair out. :-(

[tsa]

I don't understand why anyone would buy a gamepad to play games with a PC while you have a prefectly good keyboard and mouse that can do the trick. Especially in low-paced games like adventure games a gamepad is totally unnecessary IMO.
I really hope the designers of the game will re-think the interface and come up with a new demo, because as many other people in this thread said, the story and atmosphere look promising, and the only thing that prevents people from playing the game is the interface, which is very easy to fix.

Starla, I envy your persistence. I never saw the boat in the demo!