[Bastich]

Mod: this thread has been split off from the thread about Fahrenheit

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

The problem is that you immediately associate keyboard control with an uncomfortable interface.

That would be because it is the most uncomfortable interface to play a game with. It was never designed for games and is an ergonomically poor device compared to a controller or a mouse. In fact, it isn't even a good device for typing, to be honest. If a game is good only with the keyboard, it is in spite of its interface, not because of it.

While it is important to keep an open mind, being skeptical of keyboard only games is fully justified, especially considering there is little reason to do so nowadays other than pure laziness.

Who cares what kind of interface it is, as long as it's well-designed!

If it is made for keyboard only, it is already poorly designed from the start.

[TheDerman]

Some people prefer keyboard controls, myself included - just because some people don't, doesn't mean a game is "poorly designed from the start" - if I'm making a game, and my favourite controls are the keyboard, am I wrong to make said game, keyboard controlled? Why? Just because some people don't like it?

There is a definite air of "don't change our beloved genre's style" about it all I feel - if some adventure types have their way, we'll still be playing flat 2D games with the mouse when the rest of the world are playing games inside a Matrix-esque Super Gaming Arena (TM) - I digress.

My point - keyboard RULEZZZZZ!!! WOOHOO!!! WOOOO!!!

[fireside]

Originally Posted by Bastich

If it is made for keyboard only, it is already poorly designed from the start.

There's a big difference between mouse control and keyboard. With a mouse your just telling the character where it supposed to end up, and that desination has to be transcribed from the 2d mouse coordinates to the 3d world coordinates, with keyboard your steering the avatar to the destination. The mouse has to have a character that knows where objects are and can steer around them. The keyboard only needs simple collision detection. Usually that kind of thing is built into engines, though, because the npc's need it. I think what's keeping games from writing in mouse control is consoles. Probably won't see it in any game that's multi-platform anymore.

edit: I forgot about the mouse steer where you move the mouse up and down and right and left. That is easy to add to a game.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by Bastich

If it is made for keyboard only, it is already poorly designed from the start.

That is such an incredibly poor assumption, it just amazes me. It's clear that you don't like keyboard control in games, which is fine. But to say that any game with a control system you personally don't like is poorly designed, that's just dumb.

[fireside]

Originally Posted by tabacco

That is such an incredibly poor assumption, it just amazes me. It's clear that you don't like keyboard control in games, which is fine. But to say that any game with a control system you personally don't like is poorly designed, that's just dumb.

The bad part is that the interface is such a small and unimportant part of the game, and it's the mechanical end, not the inspirational end. This game looks really intriquing, I don't know how anyone could right it off because the interface isn't to their liking.

[TheDerman]

I think the interface is an important feature - a bad interface that is actually poorly designed and difficult to understand and use, can detract from the actual gameplay value.

But, keyboard control doesn't automatically result in a poor interface, and therefore, a poor game - it's all about the game as a whole.

[tabacco]

Exactly! to quote Marek from awhile ago (on a debate about 3d vs. 2d):

Originally Posted by Marek

It's like saying "all houses built with hammers have windows that are too small and have ugly retro kitchens! hammers are bad!

[Bastich]

Aaahhh.. Just feel the love...

I find it humorous that I was just recently accused of stifling the opinions of others, yet every time I state my opinion, I am instantly harangued by multiple people. Who is trying to oppress whom? LOL!

My comment wasn't about AGs or the quality of game content, but of comfort. I suggest some of you actually take a class on ergonomics, rather than assume that because you like something a certain way, it is the best. It isn't an opinion that a keyboard has poor ergonomics. It is a scientific fact. I am sure the countless people who get repetiitive stress injuries every year, would like to hear your opinions on how great the keyboard is as an input device. A mouse is a bit better, yet there is still a an RSI that is called, guess what? Mouse Elbow. People who spend an inordinate amount of time using a mouse can get tendonitis of the forearm extensors. The game-pad is actually the best. Go figure, the interface device that was actually designed for games is the most comfortable and least prone to debilitating injury.

As for me not liking keyboard based games, you are 100% wrong. I have never once let a keyboard-based game deter me. What the hell do you think I used to play games with on the PC before the mouse was commercialized?

It is funny to see the other side of the coin for a change. I am usually the one accused of holding up progress in AGs, etc., yet when it comes to input devices, I am the revolutionary. I am a stickler for interface and ergonomic design, not because a keyboard is some sort of barrier to my entertainment, but because I think interfaces should be transparent and be accessible to everyone, and not potentially lead to injury. This is the aspect of design I would like to see advanced on the hardware side.

For once, it is you people who are the Luddites, not I. I want a more ergonomic successor to the mouse and gamepad, not to stay trapped in the stone age with a keyboard. The eventual goal is to not need physical input devices at all...

[TheDerman]

I am no luddite - that's libel fella - or at least, a nasty thing to say. take that !

I was merely disagreeing with the sweeping generalisation that a keyboard game is poorly designed from the start, just because it has the keyboard as its control device - I feel this is simply not true - by that token, I could say mouse games are poorly designed from the start, because they use the mouse, which is not MY favourite method - but then, that wouldn't be true either.

And ergonomics or no urgenomiks, I don't want to use a gamepad on my PC, not now, not ever, no way, no how - I get frustrated enough with them on the consoles.

The best control method is the keyboard/mouse combo, as seen in FPS's, and some adventures - only with the actual power of thought manipulating things on screen, can this method lose the throne.

And finally - if you do anything for long enough, it won't be good for you - anybody suffering RSI from playing computersgames, maybe has more problems than just a dislike of keyboards.

Everyone can have their opinion, but saying what you said is not merely an opinion - it's a false accusation.

[colpet]

I am dubious about games that involve keyboard control for the following reasons:
- I have trouble using the arrow keys to move (either in 1st or 3rd person). When I tried to play Grim Fandango poor Manny must have had numerous concussions from walking into the wall.
- Many keyboard control games incorporate action elements (i.e. jumping or pushing). Of course this remains to be seen in newer games, so I'll wait for some reviews to get info on this . BTW, I don't like action/adventure mixes. I prefer to use my brain for puzzles, not the dexterity of my fingers.
- Many keyboard control games are in 3rd person perspective. I prefer 1st.
- I like to play games leaning up close to my monitor and resting my left arm on the desk. My keyboard is in a drawer under the desk, so it's a chore to move it out. It breaks up the concentration of the gameplay.
- I love the fluidity of mouse controlled movement in 3D games.


So far, no keyboard controls I've tried have been better than using the mouse for me. But the point is I have tried keyboard games when I've been intrigued by descriptions of the game (so I'm not that restrictive). I'm playing Uru right now using mostly 1st person mouse movement, but I still need to use the space bar to jump (and there is a lot of that in this game ). I'm enjoying the rest of game enough to continue playing.

[Marek]

Let's all try to not turn this into "Adventure conversations: Reloaded" ...

[remixor]

Originally Posted by Bastich

I find it humorous that I was just recently accused of stifling the opinions of others, yet every time I state my opinion, I am instantly harangued by multiple people. Who is trying to oppress whom? LOL!

LOL!!!!! indeed. Probably in this case it's because you make statements so broad as to say that the keyboard is by nature an inferior device for anything at all, including playing games and typing. Well, sorry man, but it's what we have. I don't know what you suggest for typing, but you'd better get on the ball and register a patent.

My comment wasn't about AGs or the quality of game content, but of comfort. I suggest some of you actually take a class on ergonomics, rather than assume that because you like something a certain way, it is the best. It isn't an opinion that a keyboard has poor ergonomics. It is a scientific fact. I am sure the countless people who get repetiitive stress injuries every year, would like to hear your opinions on how great the keyboard is as an input device. A mouse is a bit better, yet there is still a an RSI that is called, guess what? Mouse Elbow. People who spend an inordinate amount of time using a mouse can get tendonitis of the forearm extensors. The game-pad is actually the best. Go figure, the interface device that was actually designed for games is the most comfortable and least prone to debilitating injury.

Go ahead and just try to scare us. I know for a fact that you use a keyboard on a regular basis! How do I know? Magic!

As for me not liking keyboard based games, you are 100% wrong. I have never once let a keyboard-based game deter me. What the hell do you think I used to play games with on the PC before the mouse was commercialized?

I don't know, but I'm guessing it gives you some kind of ergonomic disorder or something?

It is funny to see the other side of the coin for a change. I am usually the one accused of holding up progress in AGs, etc., yet when it comes to input devices, I am the revolutionary. I am a stickler for interface and ergonomic design, not because a keyboard is some sort of barrier to my entertainment, but because I think interfaces should be transparent and be accessible to everyone, and not potentially lead to injury. This is the aspect of design I would like to see advanced on the hardware side.

For once, it is you people who are the Luddites, not I. I want a more ergonomic successor to the mouse and gamepad, not to stay trapped in the stone age with a keyboard. The eventual goal is to not need physical input devices at all...

Look, nobody in this thread has been shouting the praises of the keyboard, ok? Once again you masterfully take people's posts and twist them into some completely extreme version of what they said. People have not been claiming the keyboard is ideal, they've been saying that to be prejudiced against a game just because it uses keyboard controls is silly. I don't know how you turned that into some ludicrous hardline Luddite perspective denouncing progress in input devices.

[Jake]

I'd be interested to see someone try a character-centric keyboard controlled 3rd person game with fixed (or moving, but still changing) camera angles ala Grim Fandango, but instead of being keyboard only it also integrated a mouselook-like feature (and maybe even an on-mouse walk button for people with three button mice)... it seems like in theory that could be doable and not be horrible. It would be so nice to play something like BS3 or Grim with a mouse but still get the benefits of a 3D environment, and an analog gamepad's ability to control the speed of your turns.

Anyway that aside, how about that Fahrenheit game?

[Kingzjester]

Hey Bastich, I agree. We need to devise a new keyboard.

[fireside]

Originally Posted by TheDerman

I think the interface is an important feature - a bad interface that is actually poorly designed and difficult to understand and use, can detract from the actual gameplay value.
But, keyboard control doesn't automatically result in a poor interface, and therefore, a poor game - it's all about the game as a whole.

I can adjust to almost any interface. What I can't adjust to is a boring, uninspired story, no brain hide and seek puzzles, and role playing games.

[Ninja Dodo]

If it is made for keyboard only, it is already poorly designed from the start.

That is one of the most unimaginative statements I ever heard.

Nobody is saying that the keyboard is perfect or that it should replace other input devices. What I'm saying is that designers should consider what they have, and try and come up with creative and more entertaining ways of playing using those things. I'm all for designing the ultra-ergonomic and playable input device, but until that happens, we're stuck with the current hardware. Ignoring any single one of those out of principle would be a shame.

One interface that was all keyboard which I particularly liked was Little Big Adventure... one that was perfected in the sequel into a highly playable and smooth way of input. Often though, combinations can offer good alternatives. Outcast had a very elegant mouse + keyboard combo.

There's nothing inherently wrong with keyboards or mouses, as long as they're put to creative and well-thought out use.

If you're getting RSI from playing games, maybe you should just take a break a bit more often.

[Bastich]

I have been going to forums since they were invented, and in all those years I have NEVER been on a forum with people as argumentative as this one. I don't get in arguments anywhere else. Do you want to know why that is? It is because the other forums are occupied by adults who actually want to discuss things, not a bunch of people who view any outsider that doesn't conform to their views by continuously posting "me too" responses that fit in with their little clique as some sort of monster. Nope, anyone who doesn't agree with the status quo is some sort of infidel defiler, some intolerable blasphemer who should instantly be attacked by exploiting any available ambiguities in their dialogue.

This topic is the perfect example. Someone posted that they didn't like keyboard-only controlled games and everyone jumped all over her like she was some crazy freak deserving of institutionalization, de-programming, training and eventual brainwashing to conform to your standards. This happens every time someone says keyboard controls aren't good. Fairygodmother was the last victim.

There is, of course, no possibility that maybe the keyboard is less than an optimal interface design decision. It is always the player's fault. Developer errors are something to adapt to, not something to expect improvement on. God forbid that! Even FPSes have progressed almost completely off the keyboard since their inception for precision and ergonomic reasons. Why do you people support holding back such progression in other genres? A keyboard-only game is just ignorant at this point. Everything else has moved away from that as much as possible because it sucks. It shows disctinct lack of vision to not move beyond the keyboard at this point.

Getting back to my point, I posted in support that keyboards are ergonomically poor devices, and hence centering an entire game around it, when there are other better possibilities is a poor decision and the attack is on me. You see, on any other forum I visit, if people are unsure of what I am getting at, they probe me for more information. They are also actually interested in hearing opinions other than their own. Here is how this may have progressed in another forum:

Dialogue on forum X:

Bastich: ...ergonomically poor device... ...If it is made for keyboard only, it is already poorly designed from the start...

Respondent A: What aspects of the keyboard are you referring to in specific that are a problem, and how would you change the interface to improve them? Do you mean just using a mouse, a combination of mouse and keyboard, a gamepad, or even something completely different? Could you elaborate? How exactly would the player interact with the game using such methods? Thanks!

Compare that to what happens in this forum. You can see the difference, can't you? Here, every assumption imaginable is forced onto my statements, rather than further inquiries made upon them. Is it any surprise that there aren't a lot of older people who post frequently here, considering the treatment you give them.

You see, if some of you actually grew up and didn't see every differing opinion out there as a direct assault on your entire system of beliefs, actual discussions could take place instead of arguments. If I would have gotten the above response, we would be having a rational discussion on input devices. Instead, a bunch of childish people have turned this into a flame war by placing whatever meaning they want to on my statements for the express purpose of arguing. There is no desire for discussion at all. There is nothing inherently inflammatory about my statements. Only in your insecure interpretation of them. Grow up!

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Bastich

This topic is the perfect example. Someone posted that they didn't like keyboard-only controlled games and everyone jumped all over her like she was some crazy freak deserving of institutionalization, de-programming, training and eventual brainwashing to conform to your standards. This happens every time someone says keyboard controls aren't good. Fairygodmother was the last victim.

It wasn't everybody who jumped her, it was just me. I was feeling wild that day, I don't even remember why. Being of the sort that likes to be precise in his language I was picked by the exaggerated language she used to describe Manny's alleged uncontrolable spins, the generally useless interface of the game, and the like. Had I been more careful and had I opened a thesaurus to find a proper euphemism for the ever so cras 'notorious lie' (I was actually searching my mind for a while before I opted for a faux pas) Jim wouldn't have jumped me for calling a lady a liar. For the remainder of the virulent part of the thread I was being chastised for not apologizing instantaneously....

The interface in Grim Fandango was no problem for me, and I don't see how gamepads are much of an improvement over anything that the keyboard does... except perhaps on the ergonomic front.

[remixor]

Bastich: On those other forums, do you take perfectly reasonable statements like "Denouncing a game just because it has keyboard controls is unfair" and turn them into "Keyboards are wonderful brilliant god-like devices and anyone who doesn't like them is evil"? Because that's what you're doing now.

[Stinger]

This is all just ludicrous in a thread that is supposed to be about one of the most promising adventure games of the coming years. So everyone just forget your little tiffs, stop causing problems, stop creating problems where none exist, and talk about Fahrenheit (which shouldn't be too hard after reading Marek's preview), or we're going to close this thread. It's time for everyone on this board to stop looking for fights, and the ludicrous downswing in conversational pacifism recently is forcing the moderators to become more involved. Thank you.