[chapter11studios]

I'm moderately less excited about A Vampyre Story now that I've had a look at the latest screens. I guess I hadn't been paying enough attention to realize it's a 3D game until now, because the early screenshots were so beautifully painted in 2D. I don't have anything against 3D in particular, but compared to those gorgeous painted backgrounds and characters it's a bit of a letdown.

[Udvarnoky]

So the backgrounds aren't 2D and hand painted now. That's what you're saying.

[chapter11studios]

Originally Posted by Udvarnoky

So the backgrounds aren't 2D and hand painted now. That's what you're saying.

Uh, yeah, I thought I was fairly explicit about that. I then went on to say I found it disappointing because the 2D painted screens looked better to me. And as along as we're deconstructing my post, I was sort of fishing to see how others felt about it as well.

[Udvarnoky]

Could you link to an example of a screenshot that features a 2D background as well as one that shows a 3D environment? As far as I can tell the backgrounds were and remain hand painted 2D drawings, whereas the character models are in 3D. The screenshots with a 2D Mona sprite are several years old and from a prototype - it was always planned to be replaced with a 3D version to make character animating easier, cheaper, and quicker. But the backgrounds are definitely still 2D. So I'm kind of curious what you don't like about the backgrounds of the newer screens that you liked about the old ones.

[chapter11studios]

As far as I can tell the backgrounds were and remain hand painted 2D drawings, whereas the character models are in 3D.

Hmm, yes you're exactly right. It is just the characters that are 3D now.

Compare here:


To here:


I was thrown off because I saw the 3D character and my mind extrapolated that to the environments as well. But the point I was making is still, to some extent, the same -- I don't think the 3D rendered characters look as good, or rather I don't think they fit as well in the game environments, as the prototypes.

Granted, if the issue is that 3D characters are so much cheaper than hand-drawn characters, and it's the difference between the game being made or not made, obviously I'd opt for 3D. I just was so familiar with the prototype shots and that sort of CMI-esue hand-drawn feel that the 3D characters strike me as out of place.

EDIT: Here's a good example of where I think the 3D characters just look, well, bad.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=6823

[Udvarnoky]

I wouldn't worry.

[ATMachine]

I think the 3D characters actually look better than the 2D ones. Why? Three words: lighting, lighting, lighting.

The original alpha screenshots show a very flat Mona sprite; her skin is an unchanging pale gray. Whereas in the new shots the characters are lit by the yellowish glow of candles or are plunged into darkness in spooky areas.

Lighting can make or break a 3D engine. It looks like AME have taken that to heart in a way that would be difficult to achieve with 2D animation. Which is wonderful, especially for a game with such Gothic subject matter.

[GoT]

i think for 3D characters they're pretty damn good lookin.. i cant wait for this adventure to come out i've been following it for quite some time.

[D.C.]

I actually agree with the others. I prefer the 3D over the 2D. The 2D sprites looked a little dated and generic for my liking, but the game looks stunning now with 3D characters and great lighting.

[AdrianWerner]

I like the 3D characters, they improved like hell since first screenshots and VS looks like very atmospheric game, so 3D is better

[Orange Brat]

The backgrounds are still 2D, it's only the characters that have changed to 3D and for the better. We'll get a lot more animation out of it, plus they just look a lot better.

Actually, the painted backgrounds are in 3D, too. They're using a full realtime 3D engine, and each background is broken up into layers and each layer is mapped onto a flat 3D plane. Each plane is parallel and faces the camera. This will allow for a ton of special parallax scrolling effects and zooming and kinds of neat tricks. We will essentially be getting a great looking 2D backgrounds game that has all kinds of movement in it and a realtime 3D camera that can move around within the level but still not realtime 3D.

You can see all of the shots here:

http://www.vampyre-story.com/

The 3D Mona in the first one that loads (which is the one with the bear rug and fireplace) is a huge improvement over the 2D version.

Also, click on the upper lefthand thumbnail that says Underground beneath it. That's probably a good indication of what it will look like in motion (the backgrounds):

http://www.lostmarble.com/moho/galle...icvideos.shtml

Also, the inspiration for the whole thing (again, the backgrounds) is Disney's The Old Mill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beKzH7Ngpoc

Finally, here's a couple of quotes from the lead designer about the technology being used:

Hi All,

The Game will be in 3d, but not look like Escape from monkey Island. By the way EMI could have looked a lot better and still be in 3d, just look at Grim Fandango. But the problem was the lack of experience in the Art Director, who is great guy and very, very good animator- one of the best I have seen. But Peter Chan, Bill Eakan and I are all very experienced illustrators so that is why all the previous Lucas Adventure Games looked so good. The EMI Art director was an animator so things like color and lighting were not his specialty. But there were plenty of good artist in that team, especially Kathy Hseih, and Eddie Del Rio.

So AVS will be in 3d BUT,,,,not the way you think. I am a big fan of the early Disney movies, and one Oscar winning short in particular really influenced me. It was called The Old Mill. http://disney.go.com/vault/archives/...l/oldmill.html It was mood film, meaning it didn’t really have plot, but for good reason. It wasa test film for a new technique called multiplane camera. So we are going to do is make a virtual multiplane camera using your PC’s 3d card. The backgrounds will be painted in 2d but placed on 3d planes. This will allows us to keep the backgrounds looking 2d and hand painted, but we get to vreate the illusion of depth and perspective. It wil be really nice. I have already doen test, that isn’t ready to show but it looks good. I want to polish the test up and bit an dthen I will post it in the gallery section.

The characters will be 3d however, and there are so many good reasons to do this. First, 3d models save on animation time, though the time modeling the characters probably negates this benefit. Mona is an asymmetrical- meaning she isn’t even on both sides- character which would have been cost prohibitive to do in 2d. With 3d models it is easy to zoom in an do close ups during cut scenes and dialogue. This will allow us to do more subtle acting with her facial expressions, though, as I have been taught by Joe Ranft, never rely solely on facial expression when doing acting.

Also we want to make changes to her outfits during the game. If we did this in 2d we’d have to redo all her animations- at least two months worth of work! In 3D we just change the model and use the same animations. With 3d models we get use dynamic lighting, which will darken and light the models correctly based on where they stand, and the light can vary in value like a torch flame or a flashing light. We can also use a lot great 3D effects that would have been expensive in 2d such as rain, snow, water, moving clouds and real time light blooming.

3d characters and animation is just so powerful we can’t not do it. And those of you who are a bit cynical and think we are doing 3D animation to increase sale- well in some ways your right, we do want adventure games to reach as many people as possible, and if 3d helps do that, great, but it is absolutely not the main reason at all. I have just been doing 3d animated games since 1997 (Indy Infernal Machine, Bounty Hunter, Full Throttle II, The Two Towers, The Suffering, LA Rush) and it is the medium I am used to. Going back to purely 2d animation is too confining and time consuming. Don't get me wrong. i love 2d animtion like my friends Gendy Tartikovsky, Brain Andrews and Paul Ruddish did on Samuri Jack and Clone Wars. But for us, in games, 3d is such a great tool.

But rest assured the backgrounds will look very 2D, hand painted by me, MAria Bowen and Bill Eaken. It should look great. This I am not worried about. What I worry about is the length of the game and if it is funny enough. Those are the two things that keep me up at night. But art doesn’t.

Thanks,
Bill Tiller

Source: http://www.adventure-eu.com/forum/in...sg2409#msg2409

We draw the backgrounds on paper then scan that in and paint the set layers in Photoshop, with each plane on its own separate PSD layer. Then we save the separate layers as TGAs (Targa files) and turn them into textures, along with their alpha channels (transparent matted areas) in Maya, and then UV map the layers on to flat parallel polygons in Maya. Export that file into our engine, test it make sure it works. Then add particle affects and UV scrolling areas. Add the dynamic lights for the sets and 3d Character models. Import a separate set of geometry for the walk boxes, test that out. Then add all the interactive objects like doors and buttons and things like that. We use Maya to build the character meshes, rig them and to animate them. Nothing really exotic in this process. They only thing unusual is that we aren’t building 3d models for use as our sets, just 2d planes.

Source: http://www.adventure-eu.com/forum/in...sg4686#msg4686

[GhostPirateLechuck]

Call me old fashion but I prefer the all 2-d.

[Mikekelly]

'I think the 3D characters actually look better than the 2D ones. Why? Three words: lighting, lighting, lighting."


I think this game looks splendid and it along with Gray matter are must buys if they come to the US.

[Ariel Type]

I think the game looks so damn good not because it has neat screenshots, but because it feautures very original story and settings, which is rare nowdays.

[Bobske]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

I think the game looks so damn good not because it has neat screenshots, but because it feautures very original story and settings, which is rare nowdays.

I totally agree!

I get the feeling that everything nowadays has to be as realistic as possible.

Where is the fun in that?

[qrious]

How could someone think that this http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=2005
looks better than this http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=6691
is really beyond me...

[chapter11studios]

Originally Posted by qrious

How could someone think that this http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=2005
looks better than this http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=6691
is really beyond me...

I agree with you on that one example, but on the other hand I think the close-up shots (like this: http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=6823) look very blocky and angular.

Don't get me wrong, this is still my # 1 most anticipated game....

[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by chapter11studios

I agree with you on that one example, but on the other hand I think the close-up shots (like this: http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=6823) look very blocky and angular.

Don't get me wrong, this is still my # 1 most anticipated game....

I think they look amazing? If your expecting Halo 3 or Gears of Wars caliber graphics, go play those games, sure it looks slightly blocky but this game has some really amazing atmosphere, I love how the character look.

Im 3D all the way, specially if they are all going to look as good as these screenshots.

[chapter11studios]

If your expecting Halo 3 or Gears of Wars caliber graphics, go play those games, sure it looks slightly blocky but this game has some really amazing atmosphere, I love how the character look.

Well, no. As I said, I was expecting CMI-calibur graphics!

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by chapter11studios

Compare here:
http://www.adventuregamers.com/image...ge.php?id=2005

To here:
http://www.adventuregamers.com/screenshot.php?id=4220

The lighting is far more spot on in the shot showing the real-time model in that example, though. Actually, while the 3D model might be a bit rough around the edges, in many ways it's the 2D model which looks like a cardboard cutout thingamabob to me. Yes, it's the lighting indeed. Did I say this game looks prolly cool? No picture perfect 3dstudiomaxrendered boredom, (OMG! I can make out the texture of this wooden block of whatever!) but whoa... do I sense something as gratuitious as competent art direction there?