[Rusty]

Hello everyone,

It's been a really long time since last I've been here... Nice to be back. :-)
However, I also wanted to see what the competition is up to, so I checked up a neighbouring site I know - JustAdventure. Ain't I a stinker? ;-)

However, what caught my eye is a preview of an upcoming game called Heaven. The amount of superlatives thrown at this game in the little preview (given at the link below) was overwhelming - see for yourself. That alone made me feel that something about it isn't quite... right. The graphics do seem to be great, if a little too obviously-CGI for my taste. So, after reading a bit about it, I went to check the preview. It opens in a little window, the graphics are impressive, but... yes, the background music. Recognise it? That's right, ripped RIGHT OFF Disney's movie The Lion King (or at least sounds exactly like it). Just see the preview - you'll hear it immediately. Come on - couldn't they even afford a composer to write one original piece?

http://www.justadventure.com/Upcomin...en/Heaven.shtm

At this point, I already felt something a bit fishy going on. I went on to sniff a bit about the game in JA's forums, but I'm quite unfamiliar with them, and didn't find much. Try and click on the developer site's link - see what u get. The game is supposed to be of a religious, Christian nature.

So, anyone else heard anything about this game? What do you think?

[LuigiHann]

Trailer music isn't always... original. Or relevant. I remember reading that the theme from Myst 3 was used in a trailer for a Peter Pan movie. I wouldn't think much of it.

[CaptainDread]

Originally Posted by LuigiHann

Trailer music isn't always... original. Or relevant. I remember reading that the theme from Myst 3 was used in a trailer for a Peter Pan movie. I wouldn't think much of it.

Yeah. The original trailer for Tomb Raider Anniversary used music from Star Wars. Music in trailers mean absolutely nothing.

[Rusty]

Hmm... I barely watch game trailers, so this is new to me... OK, so it's not new. Still, is it legal, to use someone else's music in a trailer for a commercial game you make, and not even give credit to the original composer? (Granted, there are no credits whatsoever in this trailer or any trailer, but still...)

[RLacey]

More interesting would be whether it's moral to do so, given the nature of the developers and game...

[samIamsad]

Yes, I've heard about the game before, "fishy things going on" for you or not, it's just a game in development. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by Rusty

see what u get. The game is supposed to be of a religious, Christian nature.

So THAT's what the big tits on that blonde gal are for... I'm not talking about birds, obviously.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by RLacey

More interesting would be whether it's moral to do so, given the nature of the developers and game...

Definitely not a moral choice, IMO, as it shouldn't also be a legal one, I believe (though I am not law-savvy), and if everybody's doing it, it still doesn't make it right. Considering the immense amount of talent (and obviously, money) which supposedly goes into the game's production according to the preview, I find it hard to believe they couldn't hire anyone to compose original music from the get-go, including the trailer.

By "fishy", I just meant that the gushing preview, and the fact that the developers site only contains a single page, make it seem (to me) like this game is little more than a marketing scheme of some sort, at least for now. Time will tell, of course...

[After a brisk nap]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. It's extremely common, universal even, for trailers to use pre-existing music. The Requiem for a Dream soundtrack by Clint Mansell has been used in so many different movie trailers that it has become a running joke.

Obviously, for projects that are this big, the music is officially licensed and everything is above board. Nothing illegal or immoral about it at all. Now, I have no idea whether the same is true for this game, but I don't think there's any reason to jump to the conclusion that the music is used without permission.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

...Obviously, for projects that are this big, the music is officially licensed and everything is above board. Nothing illegal or immoral about it at all. Now, I have no idea whether the same is true for this game, but I don't think there's any reason to jump to the conclusion that the music is used without permission.

You're prolly right about the legal side of this. I believe the music is used with permission, or else the dev's would be standing a high chance of being sued, big time.

However, RLacey pointed it out well: The questions of such a things' legality or morality are two, completely different questions. IMO, it's not morally correct to use someone else's intellectual property (replicated fully from the original, not even rearranged) in your own art, without at least giving credit where it is due, even if the legal issues are taken care of. The fact that it is done frequently, doesn't make it morally correct from my POV.

[CaptainDread]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Hmm... I barely watch game trailers, so this is new to me...

It's not just game trailers. Movie trailers do the same thing. For instance, the trailer for Lilo and Stitch used "Back in Black" by AC/DC, but that song was not in the movie.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by Rusty

You're prolly right about the legal side of this. I believe the music is used with permission, or else the dev's would be standing a high chance of being sued, big time.

Actually, given that the music in question is just some guys chanting "aaaah", and that this is quite an obscure game, I would say the chances of anyone at Disney even noticing an infringement, or bothering to sue, or getting substantial damages, are pretty slim. If they found out, they'd probably just tell them to take down the trailer or change the music.

However, RLacey pointed it out well: The questions of such a things' legality or morality are two, completely different questions. IMO, it's not morally correct to use someone else's intellectual property (replicated fully from the original, not even rearranged) in your own art, without at least giving credit where it is due, even if the legal issues are taken care of. The fact that it is done frequently, doesn't make it morally correct from my POV.

How can it be immoral if it's used with the permission of the composer? Because you couldn't figure out that someone composed and recorded the music? Because you thought the entire game and trailer was made entirely by one person? Trailers don't come with complete credits. That's just a fact. Still, whenever you hear music in a trailer, someone composed and recorded that music, and that music was then (assuming everything was done properly) licensed for use in the trailer.

You didn't see credits for the people who did the graphics, or the animations, or the editing, or the text, or the actor who did the voice over, did you? Why is it OK for their work to go uncredited? What if they had hired a composer to compose original music for the trailer, would that have made any difference? What if the composer gave them something he had composed before? What if that music appears in the game and the composer gets a credit there?

Seriously. This is a complete non-issue.

[Hysteria]

IMHO, this is like some gay adventure...

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

Actually, given that the music in question is just some guys chanting "aaaah", and that this is quite an obscure game, I would say the chances of anyone at Disney even noticing an infringement, or bothering to sue, or getting substantial damages, are pretty slim. If they found out, they'd probably just tell them to take down the trailer or change the music.

How can it be immoral if it's used with the permission of the composer? Because you couldn't figure out that someone composed and recorded the music? Because you thought the entire game and trailer was made entirely by one person? Trailers don't come with complete credits. That's just a fact. Still, whenever you hear music in a trailer, someone composed and recorded that music, and that music was then (assuming everything was done properly) licensed for use in the trailer.

You didn't see credits for the people who did the graphics, or the animations, or the editing, or the text, or the actor who did the voice over, did you? Why is it OK for their work to go uncredited? What if they had hired a composer to compose original music for the trailer, would that have made any difference? What if the composer gave them something he had composed before? What if that music appears in the game and the composer gets a credit there?

Seriously. This is a complete non-issue.

All your arguments are fine, so let me narrow my point down as best I can.

There are no credits for anything there, no trailer has credits at it's end, etc. etc. You're absolutely right, and I don't watch many trailers, so I didn't really notice it until now. All I'm trying to say is this:
When I watch a trailer\preview\movie\play a game, I automatically assume that everything in that work of art is the original work of it's creators. ALL of it. So, if I hear\see anything there which I distinctly recognise coming from a different source, I feel it's unfair if the authors didn't give credit for that. That is all. And again, the fact that it isn't done anywhere when trailers are the issue, doesn't make it any more fair or moral in my opinion, even if all the legal arrangements are made. People may not know the music beforehand like I do, and mistakenly think the creators are responsible for it as well, thus the credit is in the wrong place.

So, in essence, I think credits should come at the end of trailers as well, perhaps in a brief version of that of the full product.

Now that I've made it clear that this is just my opinion... I guess the discussion is at it's end.

[cwapitm]

Well the graphics definitely look appealing, but I think I will have to wait to hear more news on this. Right now it seems a little cheesy to me.

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by Rusty

When I watch a trailer\preview\movie\play a game, I automatically assume that everything in that work of art is the original work of it's creators. ALL of it.

Well, if you want to be picky about it, all the work in this trailer is the work of the people who created the trailer: The music was composed by the guy who composed the music.

Yes, it's tautological. What I'm saying is simply that a lot of different people contribute their work and their art to a project like a game or a game trailer. Oftentimes, many of those people are freelancers, sub-contractors or others who aren't necessarily part of the "core team". Also, a lot of things get bought off-the-shelf: graphics engines, 3D vegetation models, licenses, ... and in this case music. Concept artists (in particular) recycle work they've used in other contexts, sometimes they even get hired to do the same thing they've already done. The creators aren't just the people who work full time for the developer. It's everyone whose work has gone into the game (or in this case the trailer). The composer is a creator.

Do you have a problem with films that use pop songs on the soundtrack instead of having someone compose a new score? Or in commercials? If not, how is this different from that?

So, if I hear\see anything there which I distinctly recognise coming from a different source, I feel it's unfair if the authors didn't give credit for that. That is all. And again, the fact that it isn't done anywhere when trailers are the issue, doesn't make it any more fair or moral in my opinion, even if all the legal arrangements are made. People may not know the music beforehand like I do, and mistakenly think the creators are responsible for it as well, thus the credit is in the wrong place.

I can see a potential problem if the music is used in a trailer but not the real thing, if it gives the impression of "this game has great music" when really it doesn't. But that's more an issue of truth in advertising than credit where it's due.

You say people who don't know the music has been used elsewhere would assign credit to the wrong people, but really they would not. It's not like they would think someone else made the music, because almost certainly they have no idea which composers work for or are contracted by this game company. They just think "Oh, the composer who made this music did a good job".

So, in essence, I think credits should come at the end of trailers as well, perhaps in a brief version of that of the full product.

A "brief version" is just another way of saying "some, but no everyone, will get credit". I think that's worse than no credits at all, because it does tend to imply that the particular people listed did all the work. Besides, putting together credits is pretty time-consuming, so it's not something you want to do for every single advertising snippet you put out.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

Do you have a problem with films that use pop songs on the soundtrack instead of having someone compose a new score? Or in commercials? If not, how is this different from that?

Just a quick one: Films always give credit where it's due in the, well... credits at the end. But I do see your point about commercials. They're created only to propagate products\services, but then - so are some games... so this is a valid point.

[LuigiHann]

Originally Posted by Rusty

All I'm trying to say is this:
When I watch a trailer\preview\movie\play a game, I automatically assume that everything in that work of art is the original work of it's creators.

The problem is with the underlying assumption.

A trailer is a commercial. Trailers are often written and edited by people who weren't involved with the production of the movie. Trailers often include text and voiceovers (In a world...) that are written, read, recorded and rendered by people who remain completely uncredited.
While it would be nice to have some way to look up who did what, I wouldn't particularly like to see credits roll after every trailer, any more than I'd want to see credits roll after every commercial. It would just be annoying. As long as the people get paid for their work, I see nothing immoral, aside from the possibility of misrepresenting the product. If they try to pass off pre-rendered graphics as real gameplay footage, or something, that is intentionally misleading... but the trailer doesn't particularly imply that the background music is from the game. It's just generic, dramatic, trailer music.

[RLacey]

I should point out that my comment on morality was dependent on the music's use being illegal. As AABN has pointed out, it's almost certainly above board.

I was never actually trying to imply that there was something fishy going on.

So, um, yeah.

[rtrooney]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Just a quick one: Films always give credit where it's due in the, well... credits at the end. But I do see your point about commercials. They're created only to propagate products\services, but then - so are some games... so this is a valid point.

There is all sorts of issues going on here. One, there is music in the public domain, e.g., Beethoven's 5th Symphony, that can be used without fear of licensing problems. Then there is the "other" music which is still under copywrite that requires a license to use it.

It may be Bob Seger's "Like a Rock" used in Chevrolet truck and GMC commercials. It may be any number of Enya songs used as background music in Northern Exposure episodes. Or, for that matter, any mainstream rock music used in snippets to support motivation in motion pictures. (I think the music of Tangerine Dream in the movie Thief is a great example.)

Whether it is the artist's agent, BMI or ASCAP, somebody should be tracking the use of an artist's music. And, if it is being used unlicensed, the user should be shut down.

Copywrite infringement is just that. It shouldn't matter whether the infringer is a movie producer or a "no name" game developer.

[eXo]

I agere with Hysterical - the game looks gay.

I really dislike the human models. Anime chicks and crystals... = low calibur FF game.

Only way I'll play is if I get to forcefully baptize/crucify people (depending on the shade of their soul of course) and blame all the cataclysmic events within the game on feminists, "the gays", and whores.

Evengelical Baptist: The Adventure.

Im there.