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Old 01-23-2007, 04:06 PM   #61
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Yep. Same ol' same ol', except new thread starter. That's how it goes.
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:28 PM   #62
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May be we should make one of those sticky?
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:30 PM   #63
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Already done, more or less.
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:42 PM   #64
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I don't think I'd want a thread like this right up top and in plain view. They have a tendency to be very draining as the arguments are more often based on the like or dislike of the genre (i.e. if you've moved on from the adventure genre, they may be dead to you but perhaps not to others) and they don't tend to be very productive. A terrific plan for the genre can be talked about in a forum but the reality of that plan's execution is another matter altogether. I find it kind of funny that the most concise and to the point post was from a game developer who's actually been in the trenches.

I guess I would rather see the action than read the words. Go and play a Kheops game (which isn't everyone's cup of tea either. It's good to like inventory ) or a Telltale game or a Deck13 game or etc, etc and see that they have gone out and tried to do something that they believed in. Sometimes these small companies or independent game developers succeed and sometimes they don't but they get a load of respect from me for even trying and putting themselves out there in the first place.

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Old 01-23-2007, 06:43 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by sethsez View Post
In any case, the point is that DS adventure games have gotten people who otherwise don't care about the genre talking about it.
That may be your point, but that isn't the point. My post was in response to Spiwak's post which included:

Let's just hope the DS is home to more "adventures" that build sme notoriety for story-based games (if "adventure" is meant to describe only lucas/sierra p&c games, then I'm referring to story-based games), because everyone knows that there are people out there that want them.....

I think most people don't give the gaming community enough credit in these discussions; a large part of the community is intelligent and wants a good story in a game.


I'm surprised that my post resulted in all sorts of concern about the accuracy of DS sales and yet those concerned ignored the 'a large part of the community is intelligent and wants a good story'! That is what resulted in my response- which was to the effect that DS sales are not alone going to resurrect an adventure game story-based genre, nor does liking P&C (read Myst-like games) make one less intelligent- and that is the (read my) point.


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Old 01-23-2007, 06:56 PM   #66
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If the genre gets a few high-profile releases a year and these games get mainstream attention and respectable critical reactions outside of the adventure gaming community, that's resurrected enough in my eyes (it's never going to be a massive blockbuster million-seller genre again, and if that does happen it'll be an isolated case). That it happens to be occuring on the DS rather than the PC irks some, but frankly I don't care where it happens just as long as it happens.
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:58 PM   #67
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I think that if happened on the next gen consoles it would certainly be a breakthrough. Unfortunately most AG devs can't afford the very high licensing fees.
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:50 PM   #68
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These past couple of weeks have three new high profile adventure games being released: Phoenix Wright 2, Hotel Dusk, and Sam and Max Episode 3. In some ways, it seems like its been surging these past couple of years, rather than dying...Sure, there aren't the same number of Myst-clones out today as there was in the late 90s, but the ones that are being released are very good, fun, original titles. We're getting quality over quantity these days.

And the DS exposure is good for the genre. Phoenix Wright stunned even Capcom on how popular it would get in the U.S. that they constantly were sold out. And Hotel Dusk is getting a lot of buzz on the mainstream gaming boards and blogs, including Penny-Arcade, who wrote a short bit on the game. And both of these title have had very poor advertising, with the popularity coming from the the blogs and word-of-mouth...In some ways, what was old has become new again in the eyes of many gamers who don't play games on the PC, heh.

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Old 01-23-2007, 09:57 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie68 View Post
I guess I would rather see the action than read the words. Go and play a Kheops game (which isn't everyone's cup of tea either. It's good to like inventory ) or a Telltale game or a Deck13 game or etc, etc and see that they have gone out and tried to do something that they believed in. Sometimes these small companies or independent game developers succeed and sometimes they don't but they get a load of respect from me for even trying and putting themselves out there in the first place.
Still, these threads are like a car crash. Eventually you'll end up taking a look anyway... kinda creepy. Especially in the light of this,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trep
Why would they want to post a headline that says: "New 2D point-n-click linear adventure game announced" and risk getting disinterested readers and advertisers?
or even this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
A new slogan for PC gaming: "All genres are niche genres. Get the f*ck off my lawn."


or this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamespot
Thousands of games are released every year
I suggest to stop talking genre and start talking games, for those who want to continue. Like this guy did in an older thread:

Quote:
Especially these days, an adventure game needs to offer a specific experience rather than just a new location to do the same old stuff in, even if the actual mechanics are the same. The big names in other genres have pretty much unanimously gone for this. You don't buy, say, Max Payne for a third person shooter, you buy it for a film noir/action movie experience. Vice City isn't a driving game about a guy called Tommy Vercetti. It's your opportunity to don a brash Hawaiian shirt and do the Scarface thing. Likewise, something like Bloodrayne may stick its protagonist's name and sundry leather-clad body parts on the front of the box, but it's still more about about hissing "Vampires. With guns!" than "Tomb Raider, but with this girl instead!"
Dead on. PS: Personally I'm really interested in how "Overclocked" will turn out to be. Unfortunately the release date has been pushed back from April to October, it seems, although none of the official sites confirm this. Patience, padawan.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:26 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by bpfinsa View Post
These past couple of weeks have three new high profile adventure games being released: Phoenix Wright 2, Hotel Dusk, and Sam and Max Episode 3. In some ways, it seems like its been surging these past couple of years, rather than dying...
I would add Myst URU Online to the above titles. Cyan and Gametap seem to backing up this resurrection experiment all the way. I just hope it takes off. Firstly because I love everything regarding the Myst universe and secondly because I always find it fun to have another human-controlled character playing along with me. It works greatly in WoW and perhaps it will work greatly in URU.

Here's a little tip too, 2D or 2.5D games don't sell hardware... We are just entering the 3D realm whereas in the FPS camp the talk is all about DX10. We are way behind and sadly this is the plain truth. There is a lot of catching up to do but I can see no good budgets or innovative producers to do so. If the 3D thing is to be done, developers should it properly. A 3D game that looks like 3-5 years old visually is a dead goose. Sadly most, well ALL adventures games look like that. Before anyone starts flaming about 3D graphics and how graphics are not important and blah,blah,blah I am referring to mainstream market success not the adventure niche clique.
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Old 01-24-2007, 02:38 AM   #71
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It also is true that there are still talented teams like Telltale, Kheops, House of Tales, Frogwares, and Cyan, that continue to make adventure games. It has customers and vendors who are willing to supply them with wares. It's not what it once was but is still commercially and artistically viable. In my book, adventure games are definitely not dead.
The only logical solution to the paradox is that the whole adventure gaming thing takes place in a mythical, skeleton-populated, mexican-folklore underworld.
Something that I've suspected all along.

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Old 01-24-2007, 02:51 AM   #72
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I got a pile of adventure games to pla on my DS - some of them best sellers!

That says it all right here.

Walmart had 8 copies of Hotel Dusk on sale - I'd say adventure games are in the money big time!

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Old 01-24-2007, 10:05 AM   #73
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I started this thread, cause i needed some input for my exam. Well just got A-, so thx for all your arguments. It sure helped me!
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:03 PM   #74
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Guess what. One of the features listed for Hotel Dusk Room 215 is:

Simple point-and-click touch screen navigation players of any skill level can play.

Hotel dusk will be the sixth game added to my Nintendo DS collection which includes of Phoenix Wright, Trace Memory, Touch Detective, Advance Wars DS, and Brain Age.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:09 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by phankiejankie View Post
Here's a little tip too, 2D or 2.5D games don't sell hardware... We are just entering the 3D realm whereas in the FPS camp the talk is all about DX10. We are way behind and sadly this is the plain truth. There is a lot of catching up to do but I can see no good budgets or innovative producers to do so. If the 3D thing is to be done, developers should it properly. A 3D game that looks like 3-5 years old visually is a dead goose. Sadly most, well ALL adventures games look like that. Before anyone starts flaming about 3D graphics and how graphics are not important and blah,blah,blah I am referring to mainstream market success not the adventure niche clique.
This is why I think Phoenix Wright, Hotel Dusk and Sam & Max are the three recent adventure games that have been getting a decent amount of buzz in mainstream forums, while everything else doesn't get a peep. Phoenix Wright and Hotel Dusk are on hardware that doesn't carry a lot of expectations, so the lack of spectacular graphics doesn't kill them. Hotel Dusk goes one further by using incredibly stylized graphics to make up for technical shortcomings. Sam & Max also does this to an extent, not being the best looking game technically but conveying a ton of personality anyway. All three games also have great, compelling writing with puzzles that either meld perfectly into the story, or don't grind everything to a screeching halt.

Basically, the games are aware of the genre's benefits and limitations and are working with them in intelligent and creative ways.

I'd also argue that the same can be done with Myst-esque adventure games, to open them up to a wider audience (hell, check out the popularity of web games like Crimson Room and other flash micro-adventure games... people do enjoy solving puzzles in atmospheric situations, the question is why they haven't been willing to pay for them). The problem there, however, is that there's less room for distinction... most games in that subgenre don't try to go for anything beyond "pretty pictures with a bunch of puzzles," which is fine for some people and isn't a bad thing in and of itself, except the very series that spawned this subgenre actually had a great deal of interesting lore and culture behind it that sets it apart from the rest, even today. There's nothing wrong with the whole "lone guy in a mysterious and picturesque place has to solve a ton of puzzles" motif, but it's just as subject to laziness as any other type of game.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:34 PM   #76
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Basically, the games are aware of the genre's benefits and limitations and are working with them in intelligent and creative ways.
Given that, how possible would it be to experiment, thus not only exploiting the genre's benefits but also stretching its [perceived] limitations? I think that would up the possibility for fresh new aesthetic and gameplay experiences, regardless of platform, and would help diversify these kinds of games. Wouldn't cost any extra, particularly if the devs were very creative, inventive, and resourcful.

Quote:
The problem there, however, is that there's less room for distinction... most games in that subgenre don't try to go for anything beyond "pretty pictures with a bunch of puzzles," which is fine for some people and isn't a bad thing in and of itself, except the very series that spawned this subgenre actually had a great deal of interesting lore and culture behind it that sets it apart from the rest, even today. There's nothing wrong with the whole "lone guy in a mysterious and picturesque place has to solve a ton of puzzles" motif, but it's just as subject to laziness as any other type of game.
Would that have to do with the [comparatively] low ceiling of production budget? It may also involve less talented writers and developers who can't be bothered with birthing a deep, rich explorable world (by that I don't just mean visually, but also narratively, historically, and/or mythologically), so they instead churn out a predictable, simple story with artificially integrated puzzles and hope the player won't notice.

Quality in this case isn't just about the graphics but, more importantly, about how deep and enriching - and ultimately, memorable - that virtual world can be.
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Old 01-24-2007, 01:33 PM   #77
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Given that, how possible would it be to experiment, thus not only exploiting the genre's benefits but also stretching its [perceived] limitations?
Maybe a way would be to release a franchise (like Pheonix Wright) on the DS or more limited hardware, build a following before releasing on home consoles and medling with the formula after the audience is established. Not like that's Japan's way of doing things, when they want to make something wacky and innovative, they just do it.

But I get sethsez's point entirely.
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Old 01-25-2007, 12:27 AM   #78
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Sam & Max also does this to an extent, not being the best looking game technically but conveying a ton of personality anyway.
True, I am not implying that graphics overshadow everything but to extend Intrepid Homoludens comment "...quality in this case isn't just about the graphics but, more importantly, about how deep and enriching - and ultimately, memorable - that virtual world can be...", nice modern graphics are the "hook". Graphics will draw a customer's attention then the story, gameplay etc. will take over. But in order someone not to lose interest early in the game or ever earlier at the store shelve you have to tease him with some nice eye candy. Of course graphics are divided to technique and art. Oblivion has both technique and art but WoW is primarily art that doesn't stop millions of people enjoying it. Dreamfall is primary art and less technique, again people (well most) loved it for its looks.

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There's nothing wrong with the whole "lone guy in a mysterious and picturesque place has to solve a ton of puzzles" motif, but it's just as subject to laziness as any other type of game.
I have plenty of friends that are really positive about adventures. Especially two of them really like them and actually play them. At times they will stop playing a game (especially Myst clones) due to time issues. After the day job the last thing you want to do is read tons of text to solve just one puzzle when in the same time you can finish a whole level in an action game. Too me this means people want more content for less time. So dear developers fasten the pace. Easier and more puzzles so people can see more in less time. Just like Dreamfall. Sorry but non-adventure people loved the game unlike hardcore adventure gamers. We have to adapt to the new daily lifestyle conditions where unfortunately time is very limited.
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