12-09-2006, 11:15 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 515
|
The problem I can think of with the idea of "the nothingness" eating up the world of imagination, as you put it, is that in The Longest Journey it was simultaneously eating up the world of science; planes falling from the air, all sorts of deaths and maimings from sudden malfunctions, etc. It was on their news and everything. I only saw the film version of TNS, but the "regular" world was unphazed by the destruction of the world of imagination.
|
12-10-2006, 12:49 AM | #22 | ||||
The Solomon of Sarcasm
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 207
|
I didn't really have time to address the Neverending Story/Longest Journey issue earlier, but I'd like to do so in greater depth here. Spoilers abound here for both works.
Quote:
Also, the Chaos Storm wasn't eating up Arcadia; it was certainly causing havoc, but it wasn't tearing Arcadia apart or causing it to stop existing. Nor was it a force of nothingness. It was the half of Gordon Halloway that belonged in Arcadia, the physical representation of an individual completely composed of the chaos that is emotionality. The half of him that belonged in Stark was the cold, emotionless represenation of a being composed entirely of logic. The storm wasn't indicative of a problem with Arcadia as was the Nothing in the Neverending Story, it was an individual creature created by splitting Gordon in half. What was happening in The Longest Journey was that the Balance between worlds was breaking down in the Guardian's absence, and both worlds were suffering equally because of it. However, the way the worlds suffered struck me as very different than the way Fantasia began disappearing in The Neverending Story. Quote:
Dragons have been featured in stories for ages, so I don't think they really hold up as evidence for The Longest Journey being based on Ende. Besides that, the dragons in the two have almost nothing in common besides the name "dragon." Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Before you ask, "Nemel Chelovek" is from a Russian fairy tale about a dragon, his uncle, a princess, and a heroic pageboy. Nemel is the uncle in question. Advertisers don't program morals into their audiences. It would be bad for business. --Sara Ogaz, Queen of the World Just about every adventure game includes you needing to combine a ham and a wrench to make a "porkscrew". --Kevin Wilson |
||||
12-10-2006, 01:03 AM | #23 |
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 447
|
I have not played Dreamfall yet so I only refer to the first game here. To me the science-versus-magic theme of the game is less intriguing than the physical reality-versus-imagination theme of the book because I do not see science and magic as complementary (or symbiotically opposing) forces the way I do reality and imagination.
I have also developed a dislike to stories about a One who will make everything all right. The One who will bring balance to the Force. Or The One who will bring Balance to the worlds. This is an adolescent vision of heroism compared to the more mature conception that it will take many to save the world. It's also the kind of thinking we see in Rambo or the policies of the current U.S. administration, where The One is without exception "this one": we or I. Ego, hubris, life as war, dialectics as state religion, theology sustaining the centrality of ego. I notice I've strayed from the TLJ/TNS discussion (on which I'm happy to agree to disagree) into more general territory. What disappoints me most about games is their uniformity of world-view. It is very rare to come across an adventure game that really has a different take on things, the way the Dalai Lama has, or Paul Chadwick, or Pierre Estève, or Lovecraft. What about a genuinely mature game where maturity does not equal violence or pessimism or exclude humour? Why is everything a murder mystery or thriller or conspiracy or war? What about the far more interesting mysteries of life at its starlit or sun-warmed best? The lapping of waves or the rustle of leaves as opposed to the dripping of blood or the sliding of blocks? Why not adventure predicated not on tension but vital enjoyment? Simo Sakari Aaltonen ([email protected]) www.adventurecompanion.com |
12-10-2006, 02:55 AM | #24 | |||
The Solomon of Sarcasm
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 207
|
Once again, heavy Longest Journey spoilers ahead.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Before you ask, "Nemel Chelovek" is from a Russian fairy tale about a dragon, his uncle, a princess, and a heroic pageboy. Nemel is the uncle in question. Advertisers don't program morals into their audiences. It would be bad for business. --Sara Ogaz, Queen of the World Just about every adventure game includes you needing to combine a ham and a wrench to make a "porkscrew". --Kevin Wilson Last edited by NemelChelovek; 12-10-2006 at 03:03 AM. |
|||
12-10-2006, 08:20 PM | #25 |
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 447
|
A story, by definition, begins with conflict and ends with the resolution of that conflict (or at least the conflict's conclusion). If a story lacks some form of tension, no matter how small or ridiculous, it's not a story, it's an anecdote. You can't make an adventure game out of something like "Person basking in the moonlight with a loved one on the beach," where that concept is the entirety of the story.Absolutely disagree with all of the above. The definition of story as requiring conflict, or drama as conflict, is nothing more than a western prejudice of very recent invention. Conflict is not necessary, nor is resolution. Creating conflict is beating up a person in order to get them to pay protection money, a storyteller creating an artificial need for their services. One could perfectly well make an absolutely delightful and life-enhacing adventure game from the scenario you mentioned. The first two Cryo Atlantis games gave clear evidence that exploring beautiful surroundings, surrounded by beautiful sounds, is enough. Godfrey Reggio, Ron Fricke, and Philip Glass did a similar thing in film with Koyaanisqatsi and the results were spectacular, liberating. They did not trap the viewer in the ubiquitous tentacles of western psychodrama, whose basic aim is to increase the tension in the audience rather than release them of it. Audiences actully think this is a good thing. They think being hooked is something desirable. It is an arbitrary and narrow-minded view, also in great part the reason the world is in deep trouble. Simo Sakari Aaltonen ([email protected]) www.adventurecompanion.com |
12-10-2006, 10:12 PM | #26 | ||
Elegantly copy+pasted
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,773
|
Quote:
I'm reminded of Tolkien writing about how the times that are most pleasant to live through are the least interesting to hear about, and to tell about. Quote:
__________________
Please excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog. |
||
12-10-2006, 11:19 PM | #27 | |
Dungeon Master
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
|
Quote:
Just because exploring the surroundings made a bigger impression on you, doesn't mean the conflict(s) didn't exist in these two.
__________________
What's happening? Wh... Where am I? |
|
12-11-2006, 01:25 AM | #28 |
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 447
|
Exactly so and I never claimed otherwise. The games gave an indication of what could be done.
Conflict is conflict only if it is perceived as such. There are other, non-dualistic worldviews. Simo Sakari Aaltonen ([email protected]) www.adventurecompanion.com |
12-11-2006, 04:49 AM | #29 | |
Not like them!
|
Quote:
I also have trouble seeing how the emphasis on conflict in stories is "in great part the reason the world is in deep trouble". Are you implying that everyone in the world is simply imitating the entertainment they see, and without that entertainment there would be less conflict? And how is it "arbitrary and narrow-minded" to enjoy witnessing conflict? It seems to me that this is a natural predisposition, not something which has been cultivated by our media. The media is only taking advantage of the human truth that we enjoy conflict and resolution by using conflict and resolution to entertain us, which I don't see as a problem at all. |
|
12-11-2006, 05:36 AM | #30 | |
Dungeon Master
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
|
Quote:
__________________
What's happening? Wh... Where am I? |
|
12-11-2006, 05:47 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
|
An adventure is by definition either a risk, or a series of events.
Unless there is a situation that must be resolved, or a task that must be fulfilled, a game becomes more of a strategy or simulation game. |
12-11-2006, 09:36 AM | #32 |
Not like them!
|
I don't see that. Riven wasn't at its core a series of events, didn't pose any real risks, and certainly wasn't a strategy or simulation game. And to AFGNCAAP I'd point out that it could still have been very entertaining indeed even without its backstory. And I might seem to agree with Simo in that I think Riven would have been even more effective without the conflict and resolution added on top, but only because I do not agree that Riven is primarily telling a story.
|
12-11-2006, 11:20 AM | #33 |
Ronin
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 429
|
Looks like we are beginning our inevitable descent into a futile argument about the definition of adventure game.
|
12-11-2006, 12:12 PM | #34 |
Not like them!
|
You're right- it's the wrong discussion. In order to stay away from there, let's limit the posts to come to games which focus more on story than exploration or puzzles, okay? That is, unless someone would like to broaden the topic to include other types of content which adventures are reusing too often.
|
12-11-2006, 12:38 PM | #35 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
|
|
12-11-2006, 04:08 PM | #36 | ||
Not like them!
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-12-2006, 12:23 AM | #37 | ||
The Solomon of Sarcasm
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 207
|
Quote:
And, assuming the concept WAS western in origin, why is that necessarily a negative thing? Quote:
__________________
Before you ask, "Nemel Chelovek" is from a Russian fairy tale about a dragon, his uncle, a princess, and a heroic pageboy. Nemel is the uncle in question. Advertisers don't program morals into their audiences. It would be bad for business. --Sara Ogaz, Queen of the World Just about every adventure game includes you needing to combine a ham and a wrench to make a "porkscrew". --Kevin Wilson |
||
12-12-2006, 01:47 AM | #38 |
Not like them!
|
Nemel, I am in awe of your wisdom.
|
12-12-2006, 02:32 AM | #39 |
Kung Fu Code Poet
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 701
|
he forgot to mention the conflicts of E. Honda and Chun-Li
__________________
http://www.screwylightbulb.com/ |
12-12-2006, 06:43 AM | #40 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
One ingredient in Riven is a "Save the Lady" storyline, which is by topic an "old theme". But in my opinion, dissecting the ingredients of a story, movie or game will make you recognize patterns that allow you to call anything new as something old. It's only a difference between how people see the game/story/movie based on previous experiences. Was there an old story in Riven? I say so. Does it really matter? I do not think so, because the storyline is not Riven's strongest point. |
|
|