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Old 09-14-2006, 04:00 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by stinking_dylan
Saying that, I started playing Fahrenheit last night. Now this is non-interaction and non existent puzzles for you. Anybody who likes this is bummer or terrorist.
Hey, my thoughts exactly!
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Old 09-14-2006, 07:11 AM   #42
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RockNFknRoll, stop it.
Stop what?? I just said I think a game sucks and these holy rollers are calling me every name in the book. Then when I respond, people get their panties in even more of a bundle. This is absolutely ridiculous lol
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Old 09-14-2006, 07:47 AM   #43
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Stop spoiling for a fight, of course. You haven't made one post yet that shows you're actually interested in a mature discussion.

Only one person called you a name (what Litrick did was harsh, but not the same thing), and he was immediately told that wasn't appropriate. That was the end of it until you insisted on dredging it back up again. The only person behaving badly since then is you. So knock it off. Now. This is not a request.

For the record, stating opinions about a game is perfectly reasonable. Making clueless statements about the people who enjoy such a game is ignorant. You know, the real reason for forums is to share opinions and perspectives equally, not insult everyone who thinks differently. I don't know why that's such a difficult concept for some people.

Now, about Syberia, I thought it was great. Syberia was about two things: art and atmosphere. The game nailed those two things in a way that precious few other games in any genre have. Certainly not gameplay, no, but who says all games have to be the same? But it's not just art alone. It's a mistake for any developer (or fan) to think that simply having good graphics will automatically put it on the same level as Syberia.
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Old 09-14-2006, 07:56 AM   #44
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I would agree with what someone else said here:

The golden age was 10 years ago:

Kings Quest 4, 5, 6, Fate of Atlantis, Monkey 1-2, Kyrandia 1-2

etc etc

The graphics may not have been up to par, because it was impossible. But the gameplay was perfect, the music was genious, the lands\storys\characters were insanely addictive to play, and when there was voice acting (like fate of atlantis or the Dig came out with), it was splendidly done with awesome actors.

Today it is a new age of adventure games. They're not awful pieces, but they're not what these games used to be. Games like Still Life, Syberia, Longest Journey, that use a 3d Model interface implement a much slower walking speed, that alone can really bore someone when you're character you're playing is walking slower than real life. The music is very very VERY morbid in the newer games, and the puzzles are almost completely non-existent. Nothing would be better than to take a programing team and a writer that put together things like the Dig or Fate of Atlantis and have them create an all new fantastic adventure.

I sat for almost 40 minutes last night in Longest Journey, not moving from the screen, listening to the bishop talk to me. I then left the room not to go figure out a puzzle, but to go "talk" to someone's name he gave me. I talked to that guy, and that guy told me to go talk to Warren. Then I talked to Warren and he told me to go get his police records. Well hell, there is some gameplay here finally but it only lasts about 20 minutes, now I'm back to talking to people for another 2 hours. The games are more like books (read alongs) than they are a players game (Figuring stuff out)

My 12 year old sister breezed through Longest Journey (Great game but) she had no frickin' clue how to get through Kings Quest 6. She was calling me every 20 minutes "How do I do this!!!"

*shrug
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:10 AM   #45
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Quote:
she had no frickin' clue how to get through Kings Quest 6.
And that statement is good for Longest Journey...or for Kings Quest?


As for Syberia.
I'll keep my opinion that Syberia was a real poetic adventure.

On the other hand, Syberia 2 was a total junk...
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:29 AM   #46
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HI

Having only played the demo of Syberia 1 & 2, I can say for certain that Syberia 1 (and possible also # 2) is gorund breaking. It has a innovative story, good visuals & graphics as well as a main person (kate walker) who also is interesting and has depth as well.

The idea of kate searching for someone, and using the puzzles as a method to advance this search is, imho, the ONLY way of using puzzles in an adventure game. Also, the milieu (or place) in which the game takes place
are also innovative as well as the (minor spoiler) automations (kind of mechanical devices) is a very interesting idea.

The game, as least in the demos, feels realistic, but as the same time you feel slightly off the realistic mode, and is sort of transported into a kind of fantasy realm in which you (as kate walker) is on your own. And so you (as kate walker) are the only one to solve any problems & challenges which arises during the game.

EDIT:

I also think that the golden age of adventure games were 8-10 years ago with games like these:

KQ 4-7, Grim Fandango, Shivers 1-2, Monkey Island 1-3, Kyrandia 1-2, and Jack Orlando
(which actually is made by Jowood Production which now makes Gothic series).

Playing the Jack Orlando demo, I realized that such a game could or would not be made today.
The gameplay is way too complex, the puzzles are fairly hard, and you actually have to think about what you're doing - and the atmosphere in the game is clearly mature.

Personally, I hope that adventure & puzzle games again will be looking into the fully 3D movement as well as the FMV (cut)scenes that, IMHO, did make games like Zork:Nemesis etc.
great.

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Last edited by aries323; 09-14-2006 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 09-14-2006, 10:26 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries323
I also think that the golden age of adventure games were 8-10 years ago with games like these:

KQ 4-7, Grim Fandango, Shivers 1-2, Monkey Island 1-3, Kyrandia 1-2, and Jack Orlando
(which actually is made by Jowood Production which now makes Gothic series).

Playing the Jack Orlando demo, I realized that such a game could or would not be made today.
The gameplay is way too complex, the puzzles are fairly hard, and you actually have to think about what you're doing - and the atmosphere in the game is clearly mature.
Actually, it was made by a company named Topware, who went on to develop Earth 21x0, a series of quite good RTSs (having bankrupted and been reborn as Reality Pump somewhere along the way).

However, Jack Orlando was horrible, IMO. Here is a thorough review that exactly echoes my thoughts about it. It's games like this, with tons of useless items to collect, forced puzzles and obscure dialogue trees, that, to me, (now watch closely as I pretend my post isn't off-topic at all ) make Syberia - a game with little "interactive density" - a welcomed change of pace (if it is done well in terms of art/atmosphere/story).
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Old 09-14-2006, 11:30 AM   #48
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Remember people...

Graphics do not make a game ground breaking. Jurassic Park was 1993. We've had CG Animation and beautiful graphics in movies and games for years. Music is not ground breaking. Just because Syberia or The Longest Journey have "pretty graphics" does NOT qualify them to sit in a hall of fame shelf with games that could literally rack your brain for hours figuring out a great puzzle.

I can make pretty graphics. I do it daily as my job. My work is not ground breaking just because it's pretty. When you're playing Longest Journey, why couldn't they have come up with a clever way to let the player handle the teleporting from Stark to Arcadia? Remember Kings Quest 6? Gosh you could map jump to every island back and forth and work and work to try to figure out what to do next and guess what, if you went into the Catacombs without the hole in the wall, you were f**ked!

The games made you think and check your pocket.

In Longest Journey, it only lets you travel between worlds when "it is time", and the puzzles are so scarce that, AND I'M SORRY, but I fall asleep during games like this and Syberia.

Yes, I love them all, but you don't take great gamemaking like Loom or FOA and throw Syberia next to it because someone cuz use Lightwave, Maya, or 3DMax well and do pretty graphics. Remember, every piece of art in Kings Quest 6 was handpainted!
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Old 09-14-2006, 11:38 AM   #49
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It seems some are quite happy with a high quality picture book on CD. That's fine - and "games" like Syberia help satisfy such people. I prefer some GAME in my game. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Syberia for what it offered - I just was expecting an adventure game with a good story and good art. 2 out of 3 ain't bad but it ain't no adventure GAME necessarily either. And as much as a rate TLJ highly as one of the top adventures, I do agree with the criticism of it for lack of gameplay and excessive conversation. I suppose the distinction is really between adventures and adventure games. What constitutes a game is no doubt something that we all feel differently about.
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Old 09-14-2006, 12:01 PM   #50
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Sometimes I'm in the mood for the kind of game Curt describes and other times I'm in the mood for a game like Syberia. When I'm feeling really stressed or overwhelmed with other things, I don't necessarily want a ton of gameplay and I like the slower pace. It's not everyone's thing and I don't know if it 'the greatest' for me but it certainly helps satisfy a certain gaming craving that I have.
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Old 09-15-2006, 02:23 AM   #51
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HI

I find Jack Orlando (the game) very interesting, and the puzzles etc. to be great (although not innovative).

My point was that such a game as 'jack orlando' could not have been made today. The whole atmosphere in the game is very mature & the look of the game also feels mature while the puzzles etc. are challenging as well.

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Old 09-15-2006, 03:21 AM   #52
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I didn't like Syberia when it was released. Too many empty screens that were only designed to walk on them (meaning: to see our girl's bottom moving from one side to another) and I didn't like most of its puzzles. When I finished it, though, I felt like there was really something something that surfaced from those negative aspects: it is the first, and maybe only, adventure which tells an emotional story, and the end really works.

The second Syberia was not necessary. The first one was about escaping reality, and we knew what Kate Walker had chosen. Surprisingly, I found it - and still find it - miles better than the first: the screens are better designed, so they are continously animated and the characters are bigger and walk less, the puzzles are much better just from the first one, and the story is miles more focused: a continous metaphore of a twilight voyage (into death) which had Kate Walker as one witty witness. The characters were much smarter, the information was given in less bits so you had to imagine a bit more, and everything was much intriguing, from the landscapes and animals to the reasons for this obstination to go until the very end.

Ok, Spoiler alert.

The ending rounded the game a lot. It was misty, just some shapes going to neverwhere. Death. Death of Voralberg? Not at all: death of Kate Walker. This way, the game is very similar to a great book from Connie Willis: Passage, which had Titanic as a metaphore of death. Syberia 2 was also amusing because of the evil characters (who added a much needed sense of humor to the story that balanced it a lot), and, in the end, it justified the first game all along. I still have shivers remembering some parts of the game, really. And lately I played it again, and still amazes me how this team managed a such intelligent, mature, deep and layered story, much better than the first one because it didn't need to show how intellectual it was with obvious opera numbers (which brought to my memories the most embarrasing Final Fantasy parts: opera only worked in Gabriel Knight 2 because there the composer seemed to know what classical music really is) or fake paneuropean feel. It shows how being a bit campier can work much better. It is a lesson. And those two games are two milestones of something I doubt even Sokal will better (seing how disastrous Paradise is)

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Old 09-15-2006, 04:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risingson
The ending rounded the game a lot. It was misty, just some shapes going to neverwhere. Death. Death of Voralberg? Not at all: death of Kate Walker.
I like your assessment of all this. When you say death of Kate Walker, I see that it’s true, in a sense. I take this to mean death of the old Kate who was tied to other peoples’ expectations. Through helping Hans, she achieved the freedom to follow her own path, whatever that might be.
Quote:
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And those two games are two milestones of something I doubt even Sokal will better (seing how disastrous Paradise is)
Just started Paradise so I might change my opinion later. Although the art remains exceptional, even such basics as Ann calling all the women in the harem “he” instead of “she” is annoying and poor editing to say the least. I’m really hoping it gets better. I get the feeling that the creators of something really good don’t understand how this was achieved because the follow-ups, by these same people, rarely meet the standards that they themselves have set.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:13 AM   #54
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Syberia 1 was pretty good... Especially the first half of the game in my opinion. It felt original and different with good atmosphere. It even goes in my top 10!

Syberia 2 was dissapointing...
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:21 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AprilLives
I’m really hoping it gets better.
As I said in my review, it does (though the translation problems remain; blame Ubisoft for that).

Quote:
I get the feeling that the creators of something really good don’t understand how this was achieved because the follow-ups, by these same people, rarely meet the standards that they themselves have set.
As far as Paradise is concerned, I think it was a conscious choice. I feel Sokal wanted to do something different from Syberia. It has strong similarities with it, but the overall mood is very different, much darker (once again, I'm tempted to pimp my review ).

Still, I've always considered Sokal a dreadful designer when it comes to gameplay. He seems to have no interest in it whatsoever, and to just throw puzzles here and there, not because he thinks they're going to be fun, or useful to the story, but because he feels he has to put some here and there. In most games, you can sometimes, or even often, feel the designer having fun coming up with a clever challenge, waiting to see how the player will react. Never so with Sokal; he seems to treat gameplay as some sort of tedious, but necessary, chore. Still, he's a brilliant artist and story-teller, casting a very personal eye on his stories and characters, which have far more depth and relevance than the cheaply emotional, or just thrilling, stuff that usually passes off as good storytelling in games. And for that I guess I'm willing to put up with the uninspired gameplay.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:25 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostas
Syberia 1 was pretty good... Especially the first half of the game in my opinion. It felt original and different with good atmosphere. It even goes in my top 10!

Syberia 2 was dissapointing...
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:36 AM   #57
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to be fair, i didn't play the whole of [even] the first game. and here's why:

the idea was wonderful. the mood was incredible. the music was stunning. the graphics were amazing. it was a third person myst-clone, [i actually forgave it for this. as far as it went, it wasn't terrible. and, even in context, this was an understandable sin] but kate walker was terrible.

every time i had to endure her, which was, naturally, for the whole game, i wanted to curl up into a little foetal ball and cry. she was so /bland./ my goodness. it was like they'd fed her a pill and said, "ok, kate. now be the blandest kate you can."

and she had a boyfriend. and a lawyer's office to attend to. and. well. stuff. it just wasn't very interesting. oh yes. and she looked like /every/ girl protagonist over the last three years rolled into one. lara croft? check. april ryan? check. anything else inbetween? check.

to designers everywhere:

please, please, please. your characters, and not just the stories you weave around them, need to be interesting and entertaining. kate walker was neither. the game could have progressed without her and /still/ had an adequate ending. kate [as i'm given to understanding this, and please forgive me, i could be talking complete tripe.] didn't grow or change or particularly evolve over the course of the two games. sure. she broke with everyone she knew. but /why?/ was there ever any compellnig reason for her to do so? [boyfriend aside.] and did she /learn/ anything from her experience? did /we/ learn anything from her experience? i highly doubt it.

i completely understand - to those who dearly love syberia - that i'm being completely scathing and not very nice, but the game simply didn't do anything for me, and almost all of it's issues begun and ended with kate walker.

oh yes. [flame jacket on. i suspect i'm going to get a ton of hate mail for this.]
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Last edited by lostwolfe; 09-15-2006 at 05:40 AM. Reason: i clearly can't spell the word "almost"
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Old 09-15-2006, 06:22 AM   #58
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It's true, Kate Walker is not a likable character (well, she is worse than that). But, as she aproaches Voralberg, you end up feeling something for her. Give her, and the game, a chance.
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Old 09-15-2006, 06:25 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
My thoughts exactly.
And the opposite of my thoughts: the first part of the first syberia is just a bunch of melodramatic clichés that seems to lead nowhere. It's just when the puzzles, the real puzzles, begin (the second part had brilliant puzzles all along) that you feel something for Kate Walker.
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Old 09-15-2006, 08:42 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostwolfe
to be fair, i didn't play the whole of [even] the first game. and here's why:.]
Playing the WHOLE game is important to enjoying the experience. However, I do know what it's like to not want to finish a game.
Quote:
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every time i had to endure her, which was, naturally, for the whole game, i wanted to curl up into a little foetal ball and cry. she was so /bland./ my goodness. it was like they'd fed her a pill and said, "ok, kate. now be the blandest kate you can."]
Interesting! For me, she was opposite of bland. I loved her voice which was nuanced ... at times Kate seemed cynical, at times her voice smiled, sometimes she seemed a little gruff, but mostly she was very kind and patient. If you want bland, try Ann Smith of Paradise (at least in the early stages of this game.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostwolfe
she broke with everyone she knew. but /why?/ was there ever any compellnig reason for her to do so? [boyfriend aside.] and did she /learn/ anything from her experience? did /we/ learn anything from her experience? i highly doubt it.]
I think Kate was dissatisfied with her life because she always did what was expected of her. Since she didn't have a vision of her own, she was drawn to someone who did. The process of helping Hans achieve his goal freed Kate to seek her own desires. In the end, she might even go back to being a lawyer. It’s just that sometimes you have to break away from all that you know in order to return to it as an independent and self-fulfilled person.
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