[Bastich]

I really liked the first 2 games so I finally caved and bought the third. I have only played for an hour and can't believe how terrible it starts out. It's like Tomb Raider but with the absolute worst controls ever. Even worse, it is obviously just a console port. With Deus Ex 2 and now this, I am starting to get a little worried with the trend. This game is probably decent on a console, but is a steaming turd so far on the PC. They put no thought whatsoever into the PC version. At least it plays well though. No hitches at all at 1600x1200@32 with 6xAA and 16xAF. Graphics are sometimes washed out looking, object density is pathetic in places, but there is one thing that stands out above all other things in pure quality in this game so far. In fact, it is the main thing keeping me playing it...

My anaconda don't want none
Unless you've got buns, hon...
... Baby got Back!

[Bastich]

Oh, does anyone know if there is a way to bypass dialogue?

[remixor]

Originally Posted by Bastich

It's like Tomb Raider but with the absolute worst controls ever.

Yeah, except that it's not.

Tomb Raider is based on action. BS3 is an adventure game with occasional action sequences which, when failed, give you another chance immediately.

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by remixor

Yeah, except that it's not.

I certainly hope not. Like I said, I have only played for an hour. I'm hoping it gets better...

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by remixor

Tomb Raider is based on action. BS3 is an adventure game with occasional action sequences which, when failed, give you another chance immediately.

Did you edit your post? This wasn't there when I first replied...

Anyway, whether or not I can die makes no difference to me in a direct control game. I liked Tomb Raider and it would be easier and faster to navigate the world Tomb Raider style than the horrible method they have implemented. I know the reason it sucks is because they didn't give a crap about the PC when they made it, but there are plenty of better methods to navigate a 3D world in 3rd person. You can even do it point and click. I have played games that have...

[remixor]

My point was simply that BS3 is not "Tomb Raider but with the absolute controls ever." I'm not even trying to argue the faults you have with the game (whether I agree with them or not), I'm just saying that I think that's a poor comparison.

[dave_minall]

is there any way to make BS3 character relative? the camera relative control system drives me mad...

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by remixor

My point was simply that BS3 is not "Tomb Raider but with the absolute controls ever." I'm not even trying to argue the faults you have with the game (whether I agree with them or not), I'm just saying that I think that's a poor comparison.

Please remember that I am only one hour into the game. I don't know what the game is like yet. All I have done is move crates, jump, hang, and sidle along ledges by hand and foot, climb walls and ladders, and do a couple of Dragon's Lair like sequences in some guy's kitchen. There have been no puzzles yet. I am not making a judgement on the entire game as I haven't played even 1/10th of it yet. I don't have anything against Tomb Raider, so I guess I don't see the harm in the comparison like you do. I am not making a genre comparison, only a comparison of what I have done so far in the game.

If it makes you feel better, I will rephrase my original post to be more politically correct:

"My first impressions are that it is a console port with a piss poor interface and I think it is rather funny that the developers obviously spent some time on Nico's anatomy, hence my joke."

Better?

[Skinny Minnie]

The odd thing is that a lot of 3D third person survival horror games use a fixed camera as well (especially if you count console games), and I'm so used to it that it doesn't phase me, never mind that overall BS3 did a better job. I'm not talking about "action game play comparisons" here either, because it's apples and oranges, but just about the camerawork, okay?
Compared to many of those games, I thought BS3's camerawork was better. Neither lead character ever became "MIA," as in disappearing right off the screen altogether, and I could always tell what was going on. There were also many examples of dramatic camera sweeps to emphasize conversations, emotions and facial expressions within BS3. No, the 3D wasn't the most amazing ever in a game (the lighting was great, though), but I thought on the whole that the camerawork wasn't half as bad as people who may be newer to 3D direct control in 3rd person games keep thinking it is.

Do you want true fixed camera headaches? Play mega hits Devil May Cry or Onimusha for a while! (And I love those games, believe me.)

Do you want completely nightmarish 3rd person 3D game camerawork in general? Try Azurik: Rise of Perathia for Xbox (where the bloody camera pereptually slides away from your character and you have to manually adjust it every two seconds or else wind up blindly dying from falls or from blindly fighting throughout the whole game), or try Dark Angel for any console platform, where you will swear that the choked off camera is looking at a top-down angle on the action from, well, let's put it this way: I'm surprised the newest US Mars Lander hasn't bumped into Dark Angel's camera yet. And don't even get me going on Silent Hill's constant whip-the-camera-around-to-face-the-protagonist-instead-of-what-is-in-front-of-him/her aggravation, which happens in Resident Evil games and even Tomb Raider games as a matter of course as well. Can you tell I have played my share of 3rd person 3D games all around?

Don't get me going on the camerawork in platformers, either, or really in any 3D 3rd person game where the camera is even character relative/behind-the-shoulder like some BS3 players say they would have preferred. Rayman 3's camera was soooo sluggish in responding to the action that it was a constant irritation. In platformers in general, you frequently get stuck in corners where you can't see squat (even while looking around with the look command if there is one) and you're expected to make timed jumps or fight enemies anyway... And no, you don't fight enemies or have to aim hairy, critical jumps in BS3. But worse camera problems exist in action games (and even in Uru's 3rd person perspective when thinking of recent adventure games), and those action game protagonists are much harder to control to begin with because of the required reflexes.

3rd person 3D has always fallen victim to camera problems whether character relative or screen relative and whether fixed camera or not, and most of them are worse than BS3's from what I've experienced.

And one thing that a lot of people complained about, aka scene changes where you would stop pressing a control button and then have to press the opposite direction to get George moving again, are jerkier and more disorientating (and happen 1000 times more often) in the aforementioned 3rd person, fixed camera mainstream titles (like Devil May Cry and Onimusha) than in BS3.

Sorry, but I couldn't help noticing while I was playing BS3 just how well done it really was for a 3rd person, 3D, direct control, fixed camera game.

Oh, and collision detection was excellent in BS3, too (another major problem in many 3rd person 3D titles)...

[Skinny Minnie]

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting. I do love 3rd person games best and always have, but after a post like that I really wonder why. I must be a masochist.

[Bastich]

I changed the title of this thread as it I think it might be a bit too controversial.

[Skinny Minnie]

I guess I *was* ranting, then, huh?

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by Skinny Minnie

I guess I *was* ranting, then, huh?

Actually no. I hadn't read your post yet when I did it. I just realized the TR reference looked almost like flame bait, and that wasn't really my intention. No need to get people riled before they even click on the topic...

As for your post, I agree that so far in BS3 there are no real camera issues so I give them a thumbs up on that. The set camera doesn't really bother me. It is just the method of control that leaves a lot to be desired. It would have been better to click on the ground in front of your character with the mouse and then use a mouse based interface for everything else also. It has been a while since I played it but I think Vampire the Masquerade had a 3rd person 3D engine where you clicked on the ground to move and just moving your mouse to the right or left edge of the screen roated your view. Doing it with a set camera would be even easier.Something like that would have been much better and would have allowed people less dextrous to enjoy the game also. It would have been P&C in a 3D world.Perhaps my memory of that game isn't very good though. I should load it up and check if it is as simple as I remember.

My post is more a lamentation of the fact that PC games are being developed for consoles first and then we are getting the shaft on the PC. Games series I really like are being screwed up. I think there is a Thief 3 petition somewhere I need to sign that is supposed to deter the "consolization" of that game. I think I may have to start actually getting involved in stuff like that.

I actually already had to use a walkthrough in BS3 in only the first hour because I never walked close enough to the wall in the picture I posted in the right spots to get a climb icon. I still wasn't fully thinking in Tomb Raider mode and didn't think smashing my face into the wall served any purpose. I 'll chalk it up to learning the new gameplay style, but it is pretty lame to need a walkthrough for something like that. It would never have happened with a mouse interface.

[atrius]

Originally Posted by Bastich

I actually already had to use a walkthrough in BS3 in only the first hour because I never walked close enough to the wall in the picture I posted in the right spots to get a climb icon. I still wasn't fully thinking in Tomb Raider mode and didn't think smashing my face into the wall served any purpose. I 'll chalk it up to learning the new gameplay style, but it is pretty lame to need a walkthrough for something like that. It would never have happened with a mouse interface.

Been there, totally agree. . As for me, I don't even dare using walkthroughs (and it doesn't mean I'm a better person). You could imagine how much my frustration grew when I "solved the case" and
realized that I just spent a couple of hours to find out that I actually could climb a god freakin' wall. This is probably the perfect example of the point you're trying to make.

And a small tip - every time things get a bit tricky, just look for the nearest wall or crate and try doing stuff with them. Believe it or not, that would probably slay the need for a walkthrough during the game.

[nordic_guy]

I agree that the pc version could have been handled better, but I still think the pc version is the best. As far as I can remember it has no loading time at all.
You could have been given a character-relative control option, but halfway through the game I got so used to it I didn't even think about it.
I loved this game. It has a very cinematic feel, it has great atmosphere, good graphics, it's very adventerous(and that's not a common thing for new adventures), it has a good plot, snappy dialogue and it has varied gameplay and some great puzzles.
I hope you like the game better as you move on. I *think* you will.
I find it odd, though, that so many people had problems with that wall.

[Adventurer]

Originally Posted by remixor

My point was simply that BS3 is not "Tomb Raider but with the absolute controls ever." I'm not even trying to argue the faults you have with the game (whether I agree with them or not), I'm just saying that I think that's a poor comparison.

Yup that's right Remixor, Bs3 is own in it's genre alltho the puzzle at the very beginning of the game reminds many people of indiana jones or lara croft. but it's engine is not based on those two action/adventure games.
And for the bit on the controls, ok you might be a bit right bastich, but once you know how to work with the controls it should give no further problems in playing.

Bs3 Sleeping dragon is good as it is

[Erkki]

I actually agree with Bastich on some points.

BS3 could have been much easier control with a point & click interface
OR
camera behind the character i.e. not fixed camera and thus character-relative controls.

Anything inbetween is less user friendly imho and Grim Fandango is the only game where it worked well for me. In GK3 and BS3 I got used to the interfaces but wouldn't really want to see another game do the same.

[Adventurer]

Originally Posted by Erkki

I actually agree with Bastich on some points.

BS3 could have been much easier control with a point & click interface
OR
camera behind the character i.e. not fixed camera and thus character-relative controls.

Anything inbetween is less user friendly imho and Grim Fandango is the only game where it worked well for me. In GK3 and BS3 I got used to the interfaces but wouldn't really want to see another game do the same.

Well that's right at some points it would be better for a good ol'e point 'n click game but bs3 is not made that way none the less. so we have to do with what we've got and it's not that bad even with a gamepad it works fine.

[crabapple]

I agree with Bastich. BS3 has the worst controls of any
keyboard-controlled game I've ever seen. I don't play
a lot of console games so for me it's even worse using
a gamepad. The problem isn't the use of the keyboard
so much as the camera-relative movement combined
with the screen switching direction.

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by atrius

Been there, totally agree. . As for me, I don't even dare using walkthroughs (and it doesn't mean I'm a better person). You could imagine how much my frustration grew when I "solved the case" and
realized that I just spent a couple of hours to find out that I actually could climb a god freakin' wall. This is probably the perfect example of the point you're trying to make.

For me, the use of walkthroughs is relative to how much I am enjoying the game. If a game is boring or lame in some way, I will cheat without a seconds thought. Life is too short to waste time on bad games with poor designs. If I like a game, I would almost rather never finish it than cheat though... I put as much effort into a game as the developer does. If they take shortcuts, so shall I.

And a small tip - every time things get a bit tricky, just look for the nearest wall or crate and try doing stuff with them. Believe it or not, that would probably slay the need for a walkthrough during the game.

Now that I have my Tomb Raider cap on, I won't miss anything like that again...