The Sapphire Claw - thinking about the future
 

As I'm moving into the last stages of the development of Mr. Smoozles Goes Nutso, I've been giving some thought towards what I should do next. Without funding for The Sapphire Claw I was intending to work on Mekapods first. However, this would push back the development of SC too far and I'm thinking of other ways I might move this forward as my next project.

One thing I'm considering is to work on The Sapphire Claw as an episodic game, with each episode coming out every 6-8 months with around 5 or 6 hours of gameplay (perhaps more). Clearly this looks like it's working out well for Telltale Games with Bone and soon with Sam & Max, so I'm hoping I can make it work for me.

Would you be interested in playing The Sapphire Claw as a series of episodes if by doing so you were able to play it sooner? What considerations would I have to take into account? Any other thoughts?

Steve, I think that's an excellent idea, so long as it doesn't sacrefic the quality of any script you might have already. As the game is reminescent of a television show, visually, I think this method would work out quite well, even if it's temperary before you get enough funding for a full developed game.

P.S. I LOVE the Mr. Snozzles comic strips on the site. Keep em up ^^

I personally would prefer a single lengthy game. I wouldn`t care if I had to wait a while longer.

But you got to do what you think is right, and whatever you do, I hope you succeed. :)

PS: SC looks really interesting, so I probably will pick it up no matter what. :D

No. For me and, I think, for lots of other people, episodic games spoil the fun. I'd rather wait months, a year, all the time it takes and then play the full game at once :P If it came out by episodes, I wouldn't consider it.

I would love to see it as an episodic game. Sure, I'd prefer if it was just one monolithic whole, but if it would make it easier for you and if we'd get to play it sooner, than go for it.

But no cliffhangers, please. If in any way possible, make every episode a small, more ot less self-contained story arc, but plan them out so that in the end they all form a bigger story. Kind of like what Sandman did, Bone wasn't as well planned in that regard. In fact, if you could pull that off, I'd prefer it in episodic form. :)

I think Episodic content for fan/indie creations are really great because of the extremely long development times.

I like episodic games and if it would give us the chance to see Sapphire claw earlier - go for it!! Others may have the patience of Job to wait years for a long, single game but I'm not one of them. :P

I kind of like having smaller, shorter games to play along side the bigger ones. It's a nice change of pace.

I am on the fence when it comes to "episodic gaming". On one hand, I feel it's geared toward a specific type of game like a saturday morning cartoon where chapters and snippets work. On the other, I personally enjoy an epic story - one where the game has a beginning and an end. Or at least a full chunk of a bigger story (a la Day of the Tentacle or something). I like the games of yesteryear where you buy and play a full adventure. I specifically hate waiting to play the next piece of the story because (as a friend of mine mentioned) by the time the next episode comes around I have either forgotten the details and/or lost interest in the story. It's not fresh in my mind.

I'm rambling. But really, I prefer a nice long full game rather than something split into episodes. I'm not a big fan of this "episodic gaming" thing. The games just aren't the same.

Episodes can be an ongoing story, like HL2 Aftermath. 3 Episodes with a 6 month wait in between.

There's a hesitation about episodic gaming (see the Telltale forums too). It seems in this day and age of publishing costs and the fight that the adventure genre has to get itself recognized, episodic gaming is a great alternative.

I don't all games should or could go to this but for some I think it's wonderful. I think the one drawback is overcharging for each episode so that after all have been purchased, a big chunk of money has been spent by the gamer.

I lose total interest in episodes. Half Life 2 is such a grand game. I hate waiting around for the next piece of the story. Bone, on the other hand, I am enjoying quite a bit. They improved the second episode. And maybe that's one benefit to episodic gaming - the ability to improve each successive game in smaller chunks. Is Steve's game fit for episodic gaming since it's in the same style as Bone? A saturday morning cartoon affair methinks.

I'm not really sure exactly what about episodic gaming irks me. I would still rather play the whole "Bone" story in one big game. But it's not quite as bothersome as playing a game like Half Life 2 in episodic format. I mean, I can't imagine playing "The Longest Journey" or "Grim Fandango" in episodes. I'm sure whatever format you decide it will still be a fun adventure. But I wanted to chime in that there are those of us who do enjoy a full-fledged contained adventure game.

I agree with you, Eriq. That`s exactly how I feel about episodic gaming, I just didn`t manage to give as good an explanation as you. :)

I think there is room for both.

Episodic gaming is as valid a method of entertainment as TV shows.

Nobody compares TV shows to movies because they tell stories in a completely different format and fashion, but there is something inherently great about tuning in every week to the next episode.

I don't see why people are comparing it to Grim Fandango or TLJ which are the movies and Bone, S&M which are more TV type. (Although with the split for years in GF you could have made it epsiodic).

I'd be happy with episodic as long as the price was right and I liked the game.

That's exactly how I feel. So if the story can be divided in smaller parts that are self-contained enough to feel individually rewarding, then I'm all for an episodic game.

right. This is the point I was trying to get across. Some games are more fit to episodic gaming than others. On the other hand, just because a game like Sam and Max is "cartoony" and able to be fit into "chapters" doesn't mean it can't be grand and epic in scale. Just look at the original Sam and Max game. It was perfect! A nice big chunk of a game with a great big ol' story. I can't imagine playing that in episode format.

My biggest problem with episodic games is that sometimes it can take too long between the episodes. If you can't release at least two episodes a year, stick with the traditional format.

The good thing though about episodic is what to do after feedback. If you spend 6 months making an episode and no-one likes it or, no one likes it enough to keep buying, the maker can say "OK, I wasted 6 months on that, no one likes it, I can stop".
However, this is better than someone spending 2 years on a game, not living up the to the hype, spending more money, looking for a bigger publishing deal, and then no-one liking it and the maker saying "After 2 looong years of battling, it was all for this...". In this respect, an episodic would be better of the two scenarios.

I mean, episodics are like demos but longer. I wouldn't mind even if you make just one episode and, if it goes down a treat, starting a full production game.

Thanks for the great feedback everyone.

There are lots of valid concerns voiced here and value - the amount of gameplay you get for your money - is clearly one of the most important, and certainly one that I agree with. It would be my intention to give more total gameplay in the sum of the episodes than if I were to create the game as a single entity.

The story, too, must be handled differently. Taking the existing story and simply chopping it into chunks would not work, so each episode will have its own conclusions while still adding to the overall story arc. What I hope this will mean is that people could play any episode and still get something worthwhile from it, but would get more if they played all the episodes in order.

The series would not be a long one - only three or four episodes - so I hope that the overall time frame is not going to be too much longer than you would expect from a full length game.

If you can make the game work in episode format, go for it Steve. :)

I used to have problems with episode format games before I actually tried them, but I don't anymore, thanks to Bone and Half-Life 2.

Of course the price will have to be right so that people will actually buy the episodic games. The price is always a key point to many people. :)

Hey Steve. You go for the episodic thing, and then you can release it whole as a package in the end to those who want to play the whole thing at once.

Good luck.

That's kind of the way I've been thinking.

Steve, there's another issue that no one has mentioned here: trust. We all feel we know and trust you. You will do as you promise, in terms of episodes. You wouldn't leave us dangling with an unfinished theme. You will at least finish off each segment to a satisfying conclusion.

M

I remember a few years ago Private Moon Studios in Hungary proposed a similar plan: put out a series of 12 episodes, one every 2 months, each providing 5-6 hours of gameplay for $10. The game was called AGON and I think it's safe to say that the business plan was a flop. The first three episodes took over 2 years to produce and each gave only 1 to 4 hours of play. It was a beautiful, intelligent game in my opinion, but its production and sales did not go as planned. Most adventure game insiders didn't even take notice until the CD-ROM compilation of the first three episodes was released as The Mysterious Codex.

Steve, you might want to compare Private Moon's approach to Telltale's and figure out why one failed while the other succeeded. It may have something to do with the method of marketting and distribution. The only place to download AGON was on Private Moon's website, while Bone can be discovered and downloaded on any of dozens of casual game sites.

Many thanks for that vote of confidence. Now you've given me a lot to live up to. :)

Crapstorm: The development side is all down to being realistic in how much you can do in the time you have available. As for marketing, I think that Telltale have that side of things mastered and I have a lot of respect and admiration for how well they've been able to spread Bone about.

Put me down for episodic.

...bysmitty

I'd love to get it delivered sooner in episodic format. I'd buy it. It also makes it easier for one to fork out the cash for something without knowing anything about the game. It costs less, and if you like it you'll buy the rest of it. If you don't, then you didn't pay for a full game, anyway.

I am having the same problem with episodic gaming as I have been having with microtransactions. Best case for me is to buy a whole game. I will however be willing to buy an expansion pack to it later if it adds a worthy amount of material to what I already have. I will not, however, pay $3 for new skins for models, $1.99 for a new building, etc.

Episodic gaming seems to have yet to find its structure. Ron Gilbert brought up a good point that a game that is over in 2 hours should be roughly the cost of a movie, ~$8-10. That makes sense, but in that case, each episode here would be ~$24-30 and if there are 4 episodes, that makes the price of the whole game ~$96-120! That seems extremely excessive, even if its the best game I ever played.

I love the idea of digital distribution and think that it is one of the best things to ever happen to gaming. For developers to see more profit from their efforts instead of giving most of it to publishers (or having to deal with them at all!) is a very good thing indeed. Instead of episodic content, perhaps one could create a lengthy demo (~2 hours or so) of a game and distibute it through online channels to whet the appetites of the consumers all the while working on the finished (and complete) product. If we have to wait, we have to wait. I, for one, don't mind waiting.

One of the problems for me is to find a balance between charging a fair price and the number of possible sales. If I knew in advance that I could definitely sell 10,000 copies, say, that would affect the price point more favourably. I don't want people to think that I'm aiming to get rich by charging too much, but I want to charge enough to be able to make a living and be able to fund further game development.

In some ways it's more of a collaboration between myself as the developer and all of you as customers. By buying my games you are, in a way, saying that you want to invest in the future development. In return I will bring you the best games I can.

Im not sure that adds up. Ron Gilbert was using the movie ticket as an example of comparative entertainment. I don't think you could charge $8-10 per 2 hours.

The game would have to be priced at a competitive price similar to other available games and market demand.

In the States most full prove adventures are $20-30 and the episodic ones I have seen have been $10-$15 for 2-6 hours of entertainment.

However Steve would have to work out how many sales he was likely to have and a price point that would see him turn a profit without pricing himself out of the market.

I think the market could probably take about $15 (£10) for 5-6 hours of gameplay.

Well said. I'm going through the same exact thing right now, albeit at an earlier stage in development than you're at I believe.

By the way, just a suggestion if you don't find a good enough way to sell it over the net - I heard Telltale Games said a while ago, that they would be interested selling other adventure games for one through Telltale Now!

Maybe something to think about?:)

I think the notion here is that its still a very new idea and no one is exactly sure how it works. Telltale has been great in terms of figuring out what people are willing to pay for.

I am a huge fan of supporting the little guy, whether that's in gaming, music, movies, literature or anything else, but obviously there has to be a limit. The trick is finding out where that limit is so that gamers don't feel ripped off and developers can actually fund more creation. A tough call, but one that will work itself out no doubt.

As far as what I would pay, I recently paid $70 for the Collector's Edition of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and I am of the mindset that it is easily worth every penny. I got it home and put 96 hours over the next couple of weeks into it and have still not come close to doing everything. Half Life 2 was another game I paid something in the neighborhood of $80 for the Collector's Edition for, but, like Oblivion, it was well worth it with the additions of Deathmatch, Counter-Strike: Source, and all of the mods. Incredible replay value in both of these.

That said, adventure games are something I am more fond of than anything else. I find myself going back to the old ones time and time again, even moreso than most of the newer titles coming out nowadays. They nearly got lost in the deluge of FPSs that have taken the mainstage for the past few years, but lately though, it has been unbelievably incredible that so many really top-notch adventures have been turning up with the promise of more on the way. Ron Gilbert is so right in acknowledging that there is still a nicely sized market of people who want a story and who don't necessarily need the slickest graphics and physics and such. The big publishers don't seem to realize this and it is a shame, but smaller devs can turn to the models that Telltale and Valve have put forth in terms of delivering aptly priced content immediately without the hassle and waste of brick and mortar stores and game boxes (though I still treasure my original LucasArts adventure boxes :-).

Steve, I truly hope that you are able to find the right balance between the content and the price and that development continues and the world gets to see what a great story you have to tell. I'll be ready and waiting to download the first episode (or the game as the case may be :-).

So long as you feel you can structure it like this without compromising your overall vision I'm all for it. Crapstorm's point regarding being able to release the episodes relatively frequently (say, at least two a year) is an important one too, I think.

I doubt this kind of anecdotal evidence will be of much help to you, but for the kind of length of episode you're talking about, if done with decent production values (same sort of quality visuals as the screenshots we've seen, good voice acting), and with your commitment to interaction density, I would pay $20 per episode without hesitation and believe some of my friends would as well (they definitely would eventually after sufficient cajoling from me.) Upon consideration I could probably go up to $30. Like I said, I don't know how useful information is to you, but hopefully it can contribute to giving you a price range to think about.

For whatever reason, developers seem to be extremely handicapped when it comes to accurately estimating completion times for their projects. One would be hard pressed to name a recent adventure game that did not push back its release date at least once. Independent games are most susceptible to unforseen production delays because the developer is usually trying to hold down a day job at the same time. It's easy to underestimate how much idle time the human brain requires.

By the way, and in the meantime, for those who are interested, I have just created a demo of Mr. Smoozles Goes Nutso:

http://www.juniper-games.com/smoozles/downloads.htm

Get it before supplies run out!

Oh, wait a minute... :)

Hi Steve

To me it's not much about quantity but quality. For example, I bought Half Life 2 episode 1 last month, and though it was only 4 to 5 hours long, it was some of the best 4 to 5 hours I've spent on a video game. Would I buy episode 2 when it comes out? Hell yeah I would.

But whether you are planning on episodic content or a full version of the game, who is your target audience? Is this a game that is targetted more for the adventure newbie or the mass market like the bone series was (especially episode 1), or more for us veteran folks who have a "few" adventures under their belts?

To be quick and to the point I will say that it would take an incedible review to get me to buy any it in an episodic format.

I've moved the couple of posts about this isn't the MSGN thread in General, which you can find here.

Okay, thanks Dale.