[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

I'll try the yeoman version of the sequence. Maybe that will appeal more to me.

Yes, tricking the Sheriff as Puck the archer is a lot more realistic, for two reasons:

Spoiler:

a) "Puck" explains that he's befriended Robin Hood and can deliver him to the Sheriff, a simpler and far more believable tale than a story of a mountain of jewels hidden in a dragon's hoard;
and b) the Sheriff enters the forest with about six men following behind him, but the Merry Men subdue the soldiers.

[After a brisk nap]

Agreed. And a third reason:

Spoiler:

The Sheriff, who has already seen Robin in two disguises (three, if you visit him as a black monk), is not presented with yet another disguise that he fails to see through.

Besides, you don't have to blow your horn on Watling Road with the forest crawling with the Sheriff's men.

This path is only available if you actually won the tournament, by the way. Oh, and did you try to offer the Sheriff money? Give enough, and you'll make a bet that you can get 700 Marks from him by the end of the day. There doesn't seem to be a way to collect on the bet though, so it's money wasted.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

This path is only available if you actually won the tournament, by the way.

Actually not true. If you lost at the tournament, bribe the guard at the gate instead of talking your way past. A penny should do the trick.

[After a brisk nap]

Ah. That makes sense. My save for having lost the tournament is on my "minimum points" path, so I don't have the money in my inventory.

[ATMachine]

Ah. I have several saves from intermediate paths. I'll talk about that later, when we get to the ending.

By the way, I might be unable to access the Internet on the week of Days 12-13 (I'll be on vacation), so I hope you don't mind me resurrecting the thread when I get back.

[After a brisk nap]

Given that Day 10 and 11 are so short (I'm playing through them now), I was thinking maybe we should just finish the game in one fell swoop. What do you guys think?

[ATMachine]

I personally think that's an excellent idea! (Especially because I'll be gone the week after that, and don't want to miss anything.) So my vote is a big fat YES.

Besides, given how the thread tends to sink to the bottom of the forum after a few days at the current pace, a slightly longer chunk of gameplay might do it some good, keep it going longer.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

I appreciate that you're frustrated, but I don't think it's fair to blame Christy Marx:

...

Those last two images are from the start of the day.

Ah. I didn't remember any of those earlier details, so I didn't understand what Little John was saying at the beginning of the day.

Mory

[After a brisk nap]

Day 10

In which we learn that fire burns.




and

Day 11

In which blood is shed.




and

Day 12

In which Robin meets a Fause Knight Upon the Road.




and

Day 13

In which Robin provides Alan-a-Dale with material for one more ballad.




and

The Endgame

In which there is a reckoning.




Play to the end of the game!

[ATMachine]

Before I post my minimum scores for the rest of the game, there's something I've been wondering about on Day 10.

Spoiler:

Is it possible to kill Marian simply by wasting too much time, and not even trying to rescue her?

The Longbow Hint Book says that it is possible to open the puzzle box on Day 11, after Marian has died. This implies that there is a way to kill Marian by wasting too much time without a rescue, since you need the Ring of Fire from inside the puzzle box to rescue her successfully.

However, I've been unable to find out how to trigger such an event. Walking back and forth repeatedly between the interior of the Pub and the forest doesn't work. Neither does simply waiting around in one location (I parked Robin on the Watling Road for half an hour in an experiment).

So far the best I've been able to do is walk back and forth between the Pub's inside and the outlaw camp several times. Then, when I blew the horn at last, Robin told Little John that the subterfuge plan (that is, going through the hedge maze) was no longer an option, and the battle plans available at that point each garnered fewer points than they would have if I had blown the horn immediately at Day 10's start.

So, this is my challenge to the AG forumites: Can you kill Marian simply by goofing off?

[ATMachine]

Spoiler:

As a follow-up note, I've become increasingly convinced that botching the Marian rescue completely on Day 10 is not possible, no matter what the Hint Book says. If it is, it sure takes a heckuva lot more work to do than messing up on other days! (I just traveled around the map hotspots in sequence 10 times, and no cutscene of any sort interrupted me, as they do on Days 5 and 11 when you screw up by wasting time.)

With that in mind, the scores for the rest of the game, as I've gotten them:

Day 10 max score: 5750
Day 10 min score: 530 - (50*N)

Day 11 max score: 6750
Day 11 min score: 530 - (50*N) (no points gained)

Day 12 max score: 7025
Day 12 min score: 655 - (50*N)

Day 13 max score: 7325
Day 13 min score: 755 - (50*N)

Minimum points playthrough notes:

Spoiler:

On Day 10, selecting Much's plan (but only after you've wandered around between the pub interior and the forest several times) gets you the least points.

On Day 11, choosing Much's plan gives you 0 points and leads to you failing to capture the treasure, with 1 casualty. His plan will fail no matter how many men you have. Poor lad isn't very bright, is he?

Or wander back and forth between the Overlook and the rest of the forest a lot. This will trigger a battle, with no points for choosing a plan, and the Merry Men will lose, with 7 casualties.

On Day 12, it doesn't seem possible to do anything with the False Knight except shoot him or be killed by him. Don't give him the Hand Code password, though, or search his body.

On Day 13, remember to turn off the arcade sequences to earn fewer points. Also, don't give the letter to the Queen's Knight.

As for the ending on the "bad" path... pretty grim, eh? Robin should've minded his manners a bit more.

[After a brisk nap]

Not unless you count

Spoiler:

spending too long in the labyrinth, in which case Robin goes mad with grief and is captured by the guards.

I like your signature, by the way! Very Errol Flynn. But I don't agree that Robin should have had the traditional hat. Moving away from the "men in tights" image is part of what makes the game seem relatively authentic.

It would be interesting to look more closely at where Christy Marx got the inspiration from for the events of the game. The rescue in Day 5 appears to draw on the Child Ballad Robin Hood and the Widow's Three Sons, although the means of rescue is quite different. (This ballad may also have inspired Robin's beggar disguise earlier in the game.)

[After a brisk nap]

By the way, there's a new Robin Hood TV series on BBC this fall. Fortuitous timing, eh?

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

Not unless you count

Spoiler:

spending too long in the labyrinth, in which case Robin goes mad with grief and is captured by the guards.

Yeah, I was sort of hoping for a way that would keep Robin alive. Strange that the Hint Book made mention of such a thing in passing, though: maybe it was in an early version and cut out?

I like your signature, by the way! Very Errol Flynn. But I don't agree that Robin should have had the traditional hat. Moving away from the "men in tights" image is part of what makes the game seem relatively authentic.

Good point.

It would be interesting to look more closely at where Christy Marx got the inspiration from for the events of the game. The rescue in Day 5 appears to draw on the Child Ballad Robin Hood and the Widow's Three Sons, although the means of rescue is quite different. (This ballad may also have inspired Robin's beggar disguise earlier in the game.)

Plus the archery tournament (complete with the prize) is from the ballad Robin Hood and the Golden Arrow. The rest of the game, though, doesn't seem to come as directly from the old ballads.

By the way, there's a new Robin Hood TV series on BBC this fall. Fortuitous timing, eh?

Too bad I don't get the Beeb. I still need to see Robin of Sherwood, though...

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Plus the archery tournament (complete with the prize) is from the ballad Robin Hood and the Golden Arrow. The rest of the game, though, doesn't seem to come as directly from the old ballads.

Apart from being based on that ballad (along with the more modern addition of Robin splitting the arrow down the middle), your opponents in the competition are Adam Bell, Clym of the Clough and William of Cloudisly, in actuality outlaws from another ballad. William had a legend very much like that of William Tell, where he shoots an apple off his son's head.

Robin's involvement in the efforts to free King Richard (including recapturing the stolen ransom) are also traditional, I believe. Going back to Ivanhoe, perhaps? I don't remember the details of Scott's novel. I think there may be a basis in ballads for Robin's meeting with the yeoman, as well as the Queen's Knight, too. Marian's involvement in pagan/heretical rituals and being burned on the stake are unlikely to derive from tradition, but I think I have seen them in other modern versions of the legend, too.

[ATMachine]

As I understand it, Ivanhoe is the reason why everybody since the 19th century onward has linked Robin Hood indelibly with King Richard the Lionheart. Before that he was associated with various kings and queens, of whom Richard was one; the early ballad A Gest of Robyn Hode refers to a King Edward, and another one has Robin meeting a "Queen Katharine" who is presumably wife #1 of Henry VIII.

Never have read the novel myself, though.

And you're right, Robin met bunches of people in the old ballads; the usual routine was that he'd pick a fight with a stout tradesman, get soundly beaten, and invite the fellow to join the Merry Men.

Back to Longbow, though. Days 10 and 11 are all right, if too short.

Spoiler:

Yet another instance of mysticism occurs on Day 10, when you heal Marian with the sacred gems. If you heal her, that is.

I like the dialogue that takes place at camp once you seize the treasure on Day 11; the successive toasts are funny.

Day 12 is okay. I'm really glad Christy Marx put in only two instances of hiding among the trees from the Sheriff's men. Three would have been overkill.

Also, I enjoyed how she slowly builds up our suspicions about the false Knight; how he sends Robin's men away, he acts extremely rude, he doesn't know the Hand Code, he won't swear allegiance to Richard... until Robin (and the player) understand at last.

On Day 13, it's a good thing IMHO the "following the wisps" puzzle only takes place on one screen. Another designer might well have stretched it out far longer than it needs to be.

The minigame is fun, too. It even offers you the option to save your game! Awfully courteous. Christy Marx learned well the lessons of Camelot, I see.

As for the endings, they're pretty good. Although it really troubles me that the Troubadour suddenly addresses the player as "you," which is typical of Sierra's style, after an entire game in which Robin himself serves as our narrator, LucasArts-style. Surely it would have been far less jarring, and a nice nod to the ballads, to have the Troubadour speak of Robin in the third person?

For those who haven't achieved all four endings, I'll summarize them below, in more detail than Christy Marx's design document has.

1) If you do really villainous things (steal disguises with the bow, let townsfolk die, don't save Marian) Robin will be hanged, although the King will pardon his men. However, if you look closely during the hanging, Little John and Friar Tuck are securely bound with rope, suggesting they too might be in for a date with the noose.

2) Robin and his men are pardoned. The Prior of the Fens Monastery is banished and his monastic order is disbanded.

3) Robin and his men are pardoned, and King Richard offers them jobs as royal foresters. The Sheriff and Abbot are ordered to pay fines of 50,000 marks each for plotting with Prince John against the King. The Prior of the Fens Monastery is exiled, and his monastic order is disbanded. Robin asks for Marian's hand in marriage, but Richard refuses because Robin is not a nobleman.

4) The best ending. Robin and his men are pardoned, and Richard makes Robin the Earl of Huntingdon. The Sheriff is arrested for treason, and is replaced by Little John. The Abbot is exiled, on pain of being burnt at the stake, and Friar Tuck takes his job. The Prior of the Fens Monastery is banished as well, and his monastic order is disbanded. Robin asks to marry Marian, and the King grants his request. Friar Tuck performs the wedding ceremony in St. Mary's, as the Merry Men, Richard, and Fulk look on.

All the endings except #4 also feature the Troubadour at the very end, telling you to do better next time you play the game.

If you don't do really stupid or mean-spirited things (like letting peasants die, or letting Marian die, or threatening people with your bow, or getting too many of your men killed by choosing bad battle plans), then the main variable in what ending you get is how much ransom you raise.

If you raise ~10000 marks (fail to get the treasure on Day 11 but win the Golden Arrow), then you'll get Ending 2, a pardon. If you raise ~50000 marks (seize the treasure on Day 11 but fail to win the Golden Arrow on Day 8), then you'll get Ending 3.

If you let Marian die, the best ending you can hope for is Ending 2. However, if you do all the really evil things except letting her die, you'll be hanged anyway. Richard will still blame Robin for killing her, despite the fact that she gives evidence in the very same trial! Christy Marx forgot to write some special dialogue to cover that possibility, it seems.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Although it really troubles me that the Troubadour suddenly addresses the player as "you," which is typical of Sierra's style, after an entire game in which Robin himself serves as our narrator, LucasArts-style. Surely it would have been far less jarring, and a nice nod to the ballads, to have the Troubadour speak of Robin in the third person?

That was already the case in the intro ('At your side companions true, Little John is one', etc.); so I completely agree with you, but it's just not 'sudden'.

(And I'm awfully late, having been gone for a week; I'll try to catch up as time permits.)

[MoriartyL]

I've finished the game, so you won't be hearing any more tales of my personal incompetence. My overall impressions? It's very good. Not as amazing as I thought it'd be, but very good.

Forgive me, but I'm going to make some brief comments on the fair. (If you are annoyed at my lateness, skip this paragraph.) I liked the fair a lot. Lively, amusing, and most importantly optional. If you want to speed through and just get to the archery competition, you can do that, I think. I like that it gives the player control over pacing rather than force him to pay attention to every little detail and move through at a snail's pace. While I did have to suspend disbelief a little to have Robin talk to everyone there (while he's supposedly trying to not be noticed), it was worth it. I especially liked witnessing the invention of the piggy-bank. The archery itself was pretty fun, and by using the save system a lot I could do the legend of Robin Hood justice. While the troubador may have forgotten that the player is looking at Robin from the outside, the player doesn't.

I'm pretty disappointed in how Marian turned out. I expected more of her personality to be revealed, and an explanation for her positively unhuman behavior earlier. No such luck- she remains nothing more than the assigned love interest to the end. They say she's a priestess, but we never see anything to show it. Now, a simple romantic interest can work, but then why all the hinting earlier? As for the romance itself, it went way over the top. Saving her life with a heart-shaped rock? Get real.

I agree with ATMachine that the scene with the fake knight was brilliant. Very clever interactive storytelling. The player is given a tool he can use (the word "voyage"), which sets him up into thinking that he is going to need to use it. But then it turns out, in a very unconventional move, to do nothing at all, and the player then realizes the twist. This is very satisfying design because it understands that it should serve, rather than complement, the story. Now, the real knight I was not impressed at all by. Here's a guy who's imprisoned by the enemy and given a clear way to escape, and he wants to question whether Robin is trustworthy. Why the heck would he be there if he weren't trustworthy? And am I to believe that he would turn down the hope of rescue because a guy doesn't tap on his hand? That puzzle was over already. I solved it not with my usage of the password in the presence of the villain, but in my recognition that it was not going to be useful. On top of all this, it also slows down what should be a fast-paced escape.

The escape itself is terrible. What, so just because it's the last playable part of the game, it should be completely impossible? Everything else in the game was downright easy on the highest arcade setting, but I'm not sure if this is even possible due to slow controls and fast boulders.

The rest of the ending was okay, I guess. I got the best ending (since I tried my best to play the game in a way that would do the character justice), and I'm glad to hear it could have gone other ways. Justice is good. The problem I have is that it has no tension and very little emotion.

You know, there's a bigger problem throughout the whole game: Some sections which should have been extremely tense and exciting are made downright dull by taking away all control from the player. Battles are noninteractive, when you should at least be able to control Robin through them. The scene at the gallows in the ending should have given you a chance to try to get out of it yourself but twisted it around similarly to the Knight puzzle. Say the scene were dragged out a bit, and you are meant to notice (along with Robin) certain items nearby which you could conceivably use to make an escape. "Ah ha!", you'd think, "This is a timed puzzle, and I've got to wait for just the right moment to make my move and figure out how to use this stuff to make a daring escape!". Just by putting those items on the screen for you to think about, it would already get you thinking frantically, scared that you wouldn't figure out how to get Robin out before it's too late. And then the point of no return would come, before any such moment is given, and you're led to believe that you've already missed your chance and thus you know with full certainty, thinking with gamer logic, that Robin is doomed. Then at the last moment he is saved, and you see King Richard return. That's drama.

And that's what I expected when I first started the game. I saw the strong characterization of Robin, and the lack of inventory puzzles, and the strong usage of design to serve storytelling, and the correct approach to pacing, and I thought, "This is it! This is the adventure game which gets it all right!". It's not quite. Partway there, but it's not what I was looking for. I also thought that the strong characterization of Robin would turn out to be indicative of the other characters in the game, but Marian turned out poorly and the other characters practically disappear, serving minimal purpose in the progression of the story. So my overall impressions are that this is a very good 90's adventure - but it's still just a 90's adventure. This must sound naive of me- sorry. It is a very good game.

[Jeysie]

Although I didn't have time to participate myself, I wanted to praise After a brisk nap (and the participants) for running the sort of Playthrough I'd been going for when I thought of the idea (but kinda flopped in doing so myself). Great stuff to read!

Peace & Luv, Liz

[beatchef]

Hello! Soes someone have a savegame so I can see the bad ending? I only got the best ending