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Old 05-02-2006, 10:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by cobra
Why would you take them out? Are you suggesting Diablo is a pure RPG? (there's no smiley big enough to attach to this)
It's "Diablo" (and that's it!).


Yay(1). This thread started rather cute, but went downhill soon after. It's one of these extremely predictable, formulaic, stale, stubborn, (...) thingamobs. It isn't even *that* much fun to read. On top of that, its budget obviously didn't allow for pretty cutscenes (120+ minutes). Crisp writing. Or anything.


IMPORTANT NOTE: *nudge*nudge*


So, eh, I'm playing two p&c'ers (sort of) at the moment. A football, er, soccer management game (flame me!!!) and "Realms Of Arkania - Blade Of Destiny", a create-a-party-of-six-and-kick-the-hell-out-of-orcs kind of game. Oldschool! Yay(2).

And hey, stop picking at Jeysie. She adores "Torment", hence she's awesome. No matter what!
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:59 AM   #62
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Football Management!? You monster!

*SHUNNED*
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:59 AM   #63
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Blades of Destiny? I do hope you spend all your time fighting in the pirate town. And beware of one of the most annoying fights in the world later on when you fight the wizard that summons dozens of enemies .
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:42 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phankiejankie
There are no plans of a console release regarding Broken Sword 4 so I believe this sums it up quite well about your statement on point n' click. Be assured that if BS4 was out on consoles too then direct control would be the primary choice.
I made no statements on point'n'click. It's you who said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phankiejankie
Unfortunately point n' click at least for mainstream success is [dead]
Even we are talking strictly adventures (because otherwise RTSs disprove that), I'm not convinced. Given that hardly any adventure could be called a mainstream success in the recent years, I don't think you have enough statistical data to blame point'n'click for that.

Or are you saying that PC-only games are by definition not mainstream?
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Jeysie
No, all it doesn't take is practice, and dismissing the opinion of someone who doesn't like the controls as them just not being willing to practice is frustrating, at least to me.
I agree one hundred percent.

I've been playing PC games since 1986, I've had plenty of practice with direct control, keyboard, mouse, with shooters, platforms, adventures, with real-time 3D, 2D, point&click, whathaveyounot. I'm quite, quite sure that I will not be getting better at direct control with either mouse or keyboard than I am now.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
No, it means that I mean no harm and that hopefully people won't see me as some kind of snob who likes to condescend on them but instead tries to offer at least some kind of view to help shed light on discussions.
It would help if you didn't use words like whining and bitching so much when talking about other people.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:05 PM   #67
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Okay. Any discussion about personal attitudes should be held out of this thread from now on. No exceptions. There is more than enough misunderstanding and, as RLacey has put it, applying blanket statements even when we do remain on topic.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:06 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
I made no statements on point'n'click.
Didn't you bring as an example Broken Sword 4 for having an optional point n' click method? Well I will re-remind you that BS4 will be a PC only title which is the reason why point n' click is considered as an optional control method. For consoles point n' click is a no go, as simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
Even we are talking strictly adventures (because otherwise RTSs disprove that), I'm not convinced. Given that hardly any adventure could be called a mainstream success in the recent years, I don't think you have enough statistical data to blame point'n'click for that.
Well sale figures of Fahrenheit and Dreamfall should above all convince you. Can you recall the last crossover adventure with good sales that made it in the top 10 of major gaming sites, magazines and retailers? When was the last time Gamespy raved about an adventure game? Both of them where innovative in some extent, 3D, direct control, hybrid adventures. I believe this is a lesson to be learned. Consoles are not the enemy, they can be a great ally too.

Many friends that are ordinary guys owning a PS2 or an X-Box suddenly get all excited about Fahrenheit or Dreamfall and asking if there are more games like the above two... There is this nice buzz that I love, reminds me of the old days, people regardless their favourite genre talk and talk on great extent about these two titles in forums, in cafeterias, in IRC channels, everywhere. That’s good, that’s healthy, I can’t recall another adventure that caused such a turbulence in the mainstream apart from these two.

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Or are you saying that PC-only games are by definition not mainstream?
That is semi-true
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:19 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phankiejankie
Didn't you bring as an example Broken Sword 4 for having an optional point n' click method? Well I will re-remind you that BS4 will be a PC only title which is the reason why point n' click is considered as an optional control method. For consoles point n' click is a no go, as simple as that.
As a default method, maybe it's a no-go, but I don't see why it couldn't be left in as an option. Dreamfall offers (not point'n'click, but PC-specific) mouse-only control scheme, despite being a cross-platform title.

Regardless, I made no statements - I am only refuting yours ("p&c is dead") as ungrounded.

Quote:
Well sale figures of Fahrenheit and Dreamfall should above all convince you. Can you recall the last crossover adventure with good sales that made it in the top 10 of major gaming sites, magazines and retailers? When was the last time Gamespy raved about an adventure game? Both of them where innovative in some extent, 3D, direct control, hybrid adventures. I believe this is a lesson to be learned. Consoles are not the enemy, they can be a great ally too.

Many friends that are ordinary guys owning a PS2 or an X-Box suddenly get all excited about Fahrenheit or Dreamfall and asking if there are more games like the above two... There is this nice buzz that I love, reminds me of the old days, people regardless their favourite genre talk and talk on great extent about these two titles in forums, in cafeterias, in IRC channels, everywhere. That’s good, that’s healthy, I can’t recall another adventure that caused such a turbulence in the mainstream apart from these two.
There is a logical fallacy in your argument. It's like you said "Unfortunately comedy movies at least for mainstream success are dead.", and then went on to "prove it" by bringing examples of two successful dramas.

Moreover, not being p'n'c is far from being the only thing that sets Dreamfall and Fahrenheit apart. You mention several yourself. They are 3D, contain action sequences, have excellent production values, are clearly addressed at mature audiences, while being accessible in terms of ("cerebral") difficulty. And let's not forget tiny insignificant thing called marketing.

By the way, since you brought up the sales argument, can you link to whatever you're basing it on? I always find it hard to find reliable sales figures for games.
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That is semi-true
Three words: World. Of. Warcraft.
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:28 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
As a default method, maybe it's a no-go, but I don't see why it couldn't be left in as an option. Dreamfall offers (not point'n'click, but PC-specific) mouse-only control scheme, despite being a cross-platform title.

Regardless, I made no statements - I am only refuting yours ("p&c is dead") as ungrounded.
Let me rephrase that in the mainstream world that covers both PCs and consoles p&c is dead. Apart from the niche market of AGamers the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about p&c. In fact many are making fun of it, as an ancient way of playing games.

Please do not mention RTSs again... It’s true and undoubted that p&c is the best way for these games untill someone comes up with an alternative method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
There is a logical fallacy in your argument. It's like you said "Unfortunately comedy movies at least for mainstream success are dead.", and then went on to "prove it" by bringing examples of two successful dramas.
No, no and no. It's you that flirt with logical fallacy. I mentioned adventure games and adventure games only. Fahrenheit and Dreamfall are classified as adventures and I am suggesting that these two adventures with their new features (3D, direct control, action etc.) are more accessible and people like them better. So by me other adventure developers should follow and embrace these features.

On the contrary you are comparing comedies with dramas. Both are movies as both games are games but dramas and comedies within the movies sphere are different things. If Dreamfall and Fahrenheit were FPS, RTGs, Platforms etc. I could understand your point but their not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
By the way, since you brought up the sales argument, can you link to whatever you're basing it on? I always find it hard to find reliable sales figures for games.
I can't help you with that since only Funcom could give you reliable sales figures but I can't see why retailers would lie and put a game in their top 10 lists, especially one that its distribution is a bit problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
Three words: World. Of. Warcraft.
Online and RTS are the last things PCs can rely too, when RTSs go out of fashion and consoles win the online war then its bye-bye.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:19 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by phankiejankie
Let me rephrase that in the mainstream world that covers both PCs and consoles p&c is dead. Apart from the niche market of AGamers the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about p&c. In fact many are making fun of it, as an ancient way of playing games.
Many people are making fun of The Sims to this day, even long after it broke all sales records.

Quote:
Please do not mention RTSs again... It’s true and undoubted that p&c is the best way for these games untill someone comes up with an alternative method.
...which won't happen, though, as long as every RTS *is* made with p&c. Kinda like adventures.

Quote:
No, no and no. It's you that flirt with logical fallacy. I mentioned adventure games and adventure games only. Fahrenheit and Dreamfall are classified as adventures and I am suggesting that these two adventures with their new features (3D, direct control, action etc.) are more accessible and people like them better. So by me other adventure developers should follow and embrace these features.

On the contrary you are comparing comedies with dramas. Both are movies as both games are games but dramas and comedies within the movies sphere are different things. If Dreamfall and Fahrenheit were FPS, RTGs, Platforms etc. I could understand your point but their not.
Look. You made a claim that point and click in an adventure excludes commercial success. I asked you to back it up. Now you try to change the topic to "Should other developers follow Funcom's and Quantic Dream's examples?", but I'm not interested in arguing against that, because I happen to agree with you (as long as by "other" you don't mean "all").

I'll make an attempt at explaining your logical fallacy better. If X="point'n'click", Y="not a mainstream success", then you said "If an adventure game is X, it is also Y" ("Unfortunately poin'n'click adventure games at least for mainstream success are dead."). When I replied that I'm not convinced you said Dreamfall and Fahrenheit should be enough to convince me. But these two games are neither X nor Y! If you think they support your statement in any way, then you must agree they also support: "Unfortunately single player-charater adventure games at least for mainstream success are dead.", "Unfortunately difficult adventure games at least for mainstream success are dead." (this one is probably true, though ), "Unfortunately adventure games not developed in Europe at least for mainstream success are dead.".

Quote:
I can't help you with that since only Funcom could give you reliable sales figures but I can't see why retailers would lie and put a game in their top 10 lists, especially one that its distribution is a bit problematic.
Did I suggest anybody is lying? I'd like to know what data you are basing your knowledge on just to compare how point'nclicks are doing in it. Top 100 Amazon best sellers for today, for example, lists Paradise on #34, two notches above Tomb Raider: Legend.

Quote:
Online and RTS are the last things PCs can rely too, when RTSs go out of fashion and consoles win the online war then its bye-bye.
And when FPSs start having as good controls on the consoles as on PCs. And all consoles get reasonable extent of backwards compatibilty. And console games prices get reduced by half. And the development for the consoles won't require Sony's/Microsoft's/Ninitendo's blessing. And console games allow players to make their own maps/mods. And...
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:11 AM   #72
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I´ve followed this thread without ever having played a game with keyboard control: arrows and WASD.
Then I got BS The sleeping dragon and it turns out to be this kind of control.
Now I´m staggering around like a drunk person. I can hardly walk straight on the sidewalk, but it´s kind of fun to slowly get the hang of it. Hopefully I´ll improve a lot more.
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Old 05-03-2006, 12:02 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
Look. You made a claim that point and click in an adventure excludes commercial success. I asked you to back it up. Now you try to change the topic to "Should other developers follow Funcom's and Quantic Dream's examples?", but I'm not interested in arguing against that, because I happen to agree with you (as long as by "other" you don't mean "all").
I will start with the point we seem to agree Of course not every developer should follow the above two games regarding design. There is always room for innovation.

As for the point n' click argument we are doing circles. I do believe that p&c is for the niche AG market only and is a disastrous choice for commercial success. In fact I think Paradise will be one of the last if not the last p&c AG we will see from a major publisher like Ubisoft.

You ask me to back it up and I told you that two of the most commercially successful adventure games of the last couple of years were Dreamfall and Fahrenheit. Neither of them is a p&c game. In strict mathematical logic that does not mean that a p&c AG can't be a commercial success but it is an indication and by me this indication means that people (apart from adventure gamers) are sick of p&c and want something else. Adventures seem to get back to the core of their existence, telling a story and telling a story doesn't necessarily need a p&c interface.
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Old 05-03-2006, 12:31 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phankiejankie
You ask me to back it up and I told you that two of the most commercially successful adventure games of the last couple of years were Dreamfall and Fahrenheit. Neither of them is a p&c game. In strict mathematical logic that does not mean that a p&c AG can't be a commercial success but it is an indication and by me this indication means that people (apart from adventure gamers) are sick of p&c and want something else. Adventures seem to get back to the core of their existence, telling a story and telling a story doesn't necessarily need a p&c interface.
It remains to be seen whether either game is commercially successful, relative to its overall budget. Selling more copies alone does not mean more successful.

In any case, interface is only one of several obvious, crucial differences between those games and traditional adventures. You may want to just ignore other successful genres that also use point and click because it doesn't suit your theory, but the fact remains that mainstream gamers DO embrace it as a viable interface if implemented in a game they want to play. The question then becomes whether traditional adventures are games that most people want to play. Probably not.

BTW, consoles are irrelevant to this discussion. I think it's pretty safe to say that point and click is not very popular on systems that don't (or only marginally) allow for it. I can't imagine keyboard controls are all that popular with console gamers, either.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:15 PM   #75
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Well, I personally have absolutely no problem with direct control. Alright, so I'm an UT2004 junkie, and pretty good at it, so that moving around with arrows and turning with mouse is instinctive. Yet, point and click can be good as well. For example, all the RTS games I'm played are esentially that, although efficient use of keyboard shortcuts can change the tide. I think this last type of games really goes back to that "executive" feel of using p n' c, while direct control is like using your own body to do things. However, the GK3 system felt like a hybrid of both, controlling the camera in a direct control way, yet using a p n' c to interact with the environment. I absolutely adored ths scheme, but I don't think it was that widely accepted, maybe because people want one or the other.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:39 PM   #76
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I havent played all the way through GK3 since im waiting to play the first 2, But having to controll 2 things at once can be quite bothersome...

I think the way BS4 is going to work sounds like a good idea, Since theres a choice of both im assuming that when using direct control you still have the cursor to interact with stuff.
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:20 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by shiajun
However, the GK3 system felt like a hybrid of both, controlling the camera in a direct control way, yet using a p n' c to interact with the environment. I absolutely adored ths scheme, but I don't think it was that widely accepted, maybe because people want one or the other.
I totally agree; it was great. I was rather disappointed many people criticised it so harshly. Especially as Splinter Cell games, from what I little I've seen of them, seem to use the same basic idea (someone correct me if this is false). What do they do better?
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:38 PM   #78
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I totally agree; it was great. I was rather disappointed many people criticised it so harshly.
It worked for me, as inelegant as it was.

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Especially as Splinter Cell games, from what I little I've seen of them, seem to use the same basic idea (someone correct me if this is false). What do they do better?
Not really. SC games allow you to pan around Sam Fisher, but the camera never leaves him. Actually, I think Dreamfall is similar to how the camera works in SC.

In GK3 the focus is not Gabe or Grace, but the environment. Thus you can move the camera away from the characters in order to examine things and look for hotspots or clues.
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:03 PM   #79
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It's more than applicable in 2D. Just play any of the old console RPGs(Final Fantasy 1-6) to see how that works. I know the Wintermute Engine has a direct control option to go along with the standard point & click in their templates, so developers can implement both.
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Old 05-03-2006, 11:13 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Jackal
It remains to be seen whether either game is commercially successful, relative to its overall budget. Selling more copies alone does not mean more successful.
Jackal that is true but the last thing I've heard from the Cage camp was that Fahrenheit sold quiet well and that they were satisfied with sales although more sales wouldn't hurt them. I don't know about Dreamfall yet but the fact that keeps popping on retailers top 10s is a good sign. Let's hope it does well, I don't think there is anyone out there that wouldn’t like to get his hands on Dreamfall 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
You may want to just ignore other successful genres that also use point and click because it doesn't suit your theory
I don't ignore them. RTS sell and sell well; adventures don't... so why would I moan about p&c in strategy games? Their doing fine and everybody is happy. So there is no need to change things radically. Adventures are a declining market. Some people can play their Scratches games and be proud about it. Well Scratches and the like maybe nice tries but production values are very low. I do not want AGs to fall into this category and quality degrading gradually. I would like to see more AAA titles and in my humble opinion one of the first things developers should ditch is the p&c interface and every thing connected to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
BTW, consoles are irrelevant to this discussion. I think it's pretty safe to say that point and click is not very popular on systems that don't (or only marginally) allow for it. I can't imagine keyboard controls are all that popular with console gamers, either.
Exactly So implement properly direct control and leave p&c for RTS. Fahrenheit proved that an adventure can win console users and Dreamfall follows the same root. Why leave a huge market as the console market out just because the p&c interface is virtually unusable with a gamepad?
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