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Old 05-02-2006, 04:52 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane_cobra
Only it's not, Diablo uses a classic point & click interface. But Sanitarium is one of those games.

EDIT: Actually, if my memory serves me well, you can use both in Diablo so you just might be right.
I can't remember the original that well, although I do remember the control system being very similar to the sequel. I played Diablo 2 and LoD a lot more, and they're anything but a classic point-and-click system.

While items are on the floor you can click them, your character will move to them and pick them up exactly like an Adventure, like for example, Discworld. Movement and the interface in general isn't about pointing with the mouse, it's more about direction, with a stop/go action. Perhaps other people can play differently, but it would make you very inefficient, and slow, which would make multiplayer a little difficult.
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:34 AM   #42
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A few people are getting really inflamed at my preference for point-and-click, and I don't really know why. If I am playing a game that gives an option between direct control and p-n-c, I'll take the latter for the reasons that I have already outlined. I don't begrudge anyone who chooses otherwise. I certainly don't feel that Ragnar Tornqvist owes me anything. The mode of argumentation employed by some people (e.g. Homoludens) in this thread is really quite hysterical.
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:37 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj_
While items are on the floor you can click them, your character will move to them and pick them up exactly like an Adventure, like for example, Discworld. Movement and the interface in general isn't about pointing with the mouse, it's more about direction, with a stop/go action. Perhaps other people can play differently, but it would make you very inefficient, and slow, which would make multiplayer a little difficult.
I never played Diablo 2, but in the original game you'd point and click to where you wanted your character to move OR you'd click, hold and then point the direction. At least I think so. I remember Diablo becoming quite notorious for its click-click-click gameplay at the time.

Wait, let's see what the manual has to say about this:
Quote:
Movement in Diablo is accomplished by placing the cursor over the area where you wish to walk and then holding down the left mouse button. Your character will automatically move towards that direction. Note that walls, monsters, or closed doors may prevent your character from being able to find a route to where you want him to go.
So it's some sort of direct control, but pretty clumsy, it makes attacking while moving harder than it should be. I'd say that, although a mouse-only direct control interface is possible, it's not the happiest way of handling things.
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:52 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane_cobra
I never played Diablo 2, but in the original game you'd point and click to where you wanted your character to move OR you'd click, hold and then point the direction. At least I think so. I remember Diablo becoming quite notorious for its click-click-click gameplay at the time.
Pointing and clicking is not sensible for the majority of the game, items, chests, NPCs perhaps, but I doubt many people played that way with both games.
Quote:
So it's some sort of direct control, but pretty clumsy, it makes attacking while moving harder than it should be.
Yes, no, definitely not. Since you're not meant to move while attacking, unless you have a skill that allows you to(there are a number of them, and they're not difficult to use), it's the gameplay, not a flaw. This is a RPG afterall.
Quote:
I'd say that, although a mouse-only direct control interface is possible, it's not the happiest way of handling things.
It's the best way to control this type of game, Diablo and Diablo 2 were incredibly popular, Diablo 2 still is. I've put in a lot of hours into the games, the interface is flawless, and not many other interfaces of other RPGs could handle the frequency, length, and speed of the action.
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:55 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colpet
This would be the only game I ever finished that used keyboard control, and let me tell you it was not easy. Sure scuttling across large areas was managable, but the finesse/dexterity needed to get across some challenges was almost impossible for me.
Spoiler:
(spider and cigarette butt in particular)
But I perservered because they were in the minority of the puzzles and loved the maze feel of the game. My skills did get marginally better by the end of the game (I didn't have to keep looking down as much), but never enough to entice me to use the keyboard again in any game. Perhaps if I kept at it, it would become easy, but these are games after all and if I feel like I'm working at it, it takes all the fun away. Besides, as someone else replied, there are a good choice of mouse driven games to play, so I'll give my support to those instead.
And that's perfectly fine. Note that I'm not saying Bad Mojo should have been easy for everybody. I was just providing an example of a game which "offers that thrill [of moving around] (...) while remaining a real adventure". I'm not arguing one control scheme being better than another, but one is sometimes more suited to a particular game (can you imagine Bad Mojo in point'n'click?).
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Old 05-02-2006, 05:56 AM   #46
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A quote from "Dreamfall excitement begins" thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phankiejankie
Unfortunately point n' click at least for mainstream success is [dead]
I guess Charles Cecil, of all people, is adding an (optional) point'n'click method to Broken Sword IV just for kicks?
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Last edited by AFGNCAAP; 05-04-2006 at 02:41 AM. Reason: post-merging clarification
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:12 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj_
Yes, no, definitely not. Since you're not meant to move while attacking, unless you have a skill that allows you to(there are a number of them, and they're not difficult to use), it's the gameplay, not a flaw. This is a RPG afterall.
Why not? I can do that in most RPGs that use the twin sticks/mouse and keyboard setup. Gameplay is designed around the system's shortcomings, of course. I'm curious, how did those skills work? Were you able to maneuver your character in any direction while shooting/spellcasting in any other direction?

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It's the best way to control this type of game, Diablo and Diablo 2 were incredibly popular, Diablo 2 still is.
Certainly not only because of their interface.

simplest != best.

Quote:
I've put in a lot of hours into the games, the interface is flawless, and not many other interfaces of other RPGs could handle the frequency, length, and speed of the action.
Again, I can only speak of the original game, but its interface was FAR from flawless. Good luck playing Crimsonland with Diablo's interface.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:17 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
I guess Charles Cecil, of all people, is adding an (optional) point'n'click method to Broken Sword IV just for kicks?
Actually, point & click is the default control method in BS4 precisely because BS4 is a game primarily aimed at PC adventure gamers. You know, the ones that frown at the very notion of direct control.
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Last edited by AFGNCAAP; 05-04-2006 at 02:42 AM. Reason: post-merging clarification
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:26 AM   #49
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Take RTSs, then.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:33 AM   #50
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Sure, but I kind of suspect he was talking about adventure games.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:58 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insane_cobra
Why not? I can do that in most RPGs that use the twin sticks/mouse and keyboard setup.
If you take out hybrids(because it's not the same gameplay), and console RPGs(because you can't move full stop in them), how many RPGs let you attack and move at the same time? Does Baldur's Gate? Does The Temple of Elemental Evil? Neverwinter Nights? Fallout(it's turn based, but it makes it pretty difficult to move and attack)?
Quote:
I'm curious, how did those skills work?
Aim, right-click.
Quote:
Were you able to maneuver your character in any direction while shooting/spellcasting in any other direction?
No, this is part of the gameplay, you are stationary when casting/shooting/hitting, unless you use a skill that moves and does one of those things.
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Certainly not only because of their interface.
If you spent some time with it, it would be quite obvious that it's a major factor.
Quote:
Again, I can only speak of the original game, but its interface was FAR from flawless. Good luck playing Crimsonland with Diablo's interface.
Good luck playing Diablo with Crimsonland's interface, they're pretty different games. That has no effect on how perfect Diablo 2's interface undoubtibly is. I wasn't saying that other RPGs should adopt Diablo's interface, that'd be horrible, I'm saying that if Diablo had a different interface, it wouldn't be half the game, and that the interface it has is pretty much perfect for the game.
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:08 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj_
If you take out hybrids(because it's not the same gameplay), and console RPGs(because you can't move full stop in them), how many RPGs let you attack and move at the same time?
Why would you take them out? Are you suggesting Diablo is a pure RPG? (there's no smiley big enough to attach to this)

Quote:
Aim, right-click.
Right, in the first game that combination was reserved for spellcasting and skills. Was it the same in Diablo 2? The same button for skills and spells?

Quote:
No, this is part of the gameplay, you are stationary when casting/shooting/hitting, unless you use a skill that moves and does one of those things.
So you can't maneuver and shoot at the same time. You right-click, your character starts moving in that direction and then you shoot. If you want to adjust the movement, you have to stop shooting. That may not be a big problem in Diablo's case (because gameplay is cleverly designed around the interface), but in a game involving modern ranged combat it would definitely be noticeable, if not disastrous. There are ways to implement mouse-only simultaneous running and gunning; Heavy Weapon and Cannon Fodder do that, but that's exactly what I'd call clunky.

Quote:
If you spent some time with it, it would be quite obvious that it's a major factor.
I finished Diablo at least a dozen times and one of the things that annoyed me the most was having to fiddle with its interface. Don't get me wrong, there were many good things about it, but I was often reminded of its clumsiness, especially when not playing a meelee character. I've learnt to live with it, but suggesting it couldn't be any better is absurd. Again, maybe they did radically improve it for Diablo 2, I wouldn't really know.

Quote:
Good luck playing Diablo with Crimsonland's interface, they're pretty different games.
I knew you're gonna say that.

Yes, they're pretty different games, but we're talking about movement schemes, and in that regard I would have absolutely no problem playing Diablo with Crimsonland's interface.

Quote:
That has no effect on how perfect Diablo 2's interface undoubtibly is.
Undoubtedly? Well, that leaves no room for debate then, you win.

Quote:
I wasn't saying that other RPGs should adopt Diablo's interface, that'd be horrible, I'm saying that if Diablo had a different interface, it wouldn't be half the game, and that the interface it has is pretty much perfect for the game.
Of course it wouldn't. That's because, when designing the interface, Blizzard opted for a good balance between power and ease of use learning and then designed the game around that interface. That's very smart of them, that's how it should be done. But that doesn't make the interface per se that great.
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:33 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
A few people are getting really inflamed at my preference for point-and-click, and I don't really know why. If I am playing a game that gives an option between direct control and p-n-c, I'll take the latter for the reasons that I have already outlined. I don't begrudge anyone who chooses otherwise. I certainly don't feel that Ragnar Tornqvist owes me anything. The mode of argumentation employed by some people (e.g. Homoludens) in this thread is really quite hysterical.
Hysterical? All I said was that if I can master direct control, anyone can. All it takes is practice. It's no different from learning to use the mouse for the very first time.

Now, if you have some skills at using either direct control or p-&-c and prefer the latter, then fine. But just because you may not be proficient at the former, doesn't and shouldn't mean it's automatically awkward in general. It may just mean that some games do a lousy job of implementing it, that's all. Or it may mean you refuse to just sit down and try to get better at it, like I and many others have done. Let's keep it real, I wasn't being argumentative.
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
I guess Charles Cecil, of all people, is adding an (optional) point'n'click method to Broken Sword IV just for kicks?
There are no plans of a console release regarding Broken Sword 4 so I believe this sums it up quite well about your statement on point n' click. Be assured that if BS4 was out on consoles too then direct control would be the primary choice.
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:18 AM   #55
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Have you noticed that lately every your post starts with a smiley?
Hope that means things are turning to better in sunny LA.
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Old 05-02-2006, 09:20 AM   #56
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LOL! No, it means that I mean no harm and that hopefully people won't see me as some kind of snob who likes to condescend on them but instead tries to offer at least some kind of view to help shed light on discussions.

Oh, and yeah, things are turning better in sunny L.A.
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:12 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
A few people are getting really inflamed at my preference for point-and-click, and I don't really know why. If I am playing a game that gives an option between direct control and p-n-c, I'll take the latter for the reasons that I have already outlined. I don't begrudge anyone who chooses otherwise. I certainly don't feel that Ragnar Tornqvist owes me anything. The mode of argumentation employed by some people (e.g. Homoludens) in this thread is really quite hysterical.
I can only say this for myself but its not your love for Point and click thats..."inflaming" people, its the way you bad mouthing Direct control just because of the fact that you havent got the grips of it.

Maybe thats not what you meant but its the impression your words are giving off
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
LOL! No, it means that I mean no harm and that hopefully people won't see me as some kind of snob who likes to condescend on them but instead tries to offer at least some kind of view to help shed light on discussions.
*rubs her nose* This kind of attitude:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
Hysterical? All I said was that if I can master direct control, anyone can. All it takes is practice. It's no different from learning to use the mouse for the very first time.
* Does* come off as condescending, however. No, all it doesn't take is practice, and dismissing the opinion of someone who doesn't like the controls as them just not being willing to practice is frustrating, at least to me.

I was in a sour mood last night, so I didn't phrase things diplomatically, and I apologize... nevertheless the gist of my opinion remains. I'm rather sorry that you feel like being rude to me... I don't understand what your problem with me is. (I mean, is pointing out that I thought somebody came off as a bit rude in one of their posts against the forum rules?)

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Old 05-02-2006, 10:24 AM   #59
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Jeysie, just drop it, okay? You want to continue this, do it on your own. You're forcing things off topic again, so just drop it and let's move on. I'm sure the mods and everyone else will appreciate it.
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Old 05-02-2006, 10:38 AM   #60
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Given that the discussion has already moved to a "Does Diablo 2 have the greatest control system of all time?" discussion, and that the initial point of the topic - clarifying what is meant by direct control - appears to have been exhausted, I'm not quite sure how Jeysie is specifically forcing things off-topic. Either way, a couple of your posts did strike me as a little patronising, Trep, and the phrase "I'm sure the mods and everyone else will appreciate it" is an annoying - not to mention inaccurate - method of avoiding mounting a defense .

That said, I have no great desire to get into an argument with anyone, but can people at least consider the views of others rather than applying a blanket statement to those who don't agree with their views?

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