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Old 05-01-2006, 06:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
(Note: I'm sure this is possible with 2D games, too, but it would seem to be in a much more limited fashion.)
Sure, it's possible. King's Quest 4 did it in 1988. Of course, that was a text parser game. In an icon-driven game it's less useful because you still need to use the mouse to access your icons.

If I'm not mistaken, Al Emmo allows you to move Al around with the keyboard arrows, as well as with the mouse. I'm sure there are other point & click games that do it (I know some of Sierra's did).
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:56 AM   #22
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Syberia does it aswell
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:01 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmillo
Im still wondering what direct control adventures youve played, apart from Grim Fandango. Just cause its direct control doesnt mean you require allot of dexterty, your making out that direct control is such a big chore....
Sorry, Karm. Uru is probably the best (i.e. worst) example of a direct control game that was so difficult to maneuver the character that I couldn't enjoy it. I kept falling into crevasses or getting snagged on furniture or walking in place for no apparent reason. I also had issues with direct control in Sentinel (a.k.a. Realms of Illusion). For example, there was one particular out-of-the-way switch that I had to visit a dozen times, and it was a major chore to climb the 10-flight staircase to get to it. I wish it had one of those short-cut lightning bolts to zip through places that have already been visited.
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
If I'm not mistaken, Al Emmo allows you to move Al around with the keyboard arrows, as well as with the mouse.
Oh yeah? That'd be cool. I'm not sure if I'll use it, but having the option is nice.

And yeah, old Sierra games would definitely be examples of using direct control in 2D games. That's what I meant by being limited, though. Four directional keys and the environment never changes or reacts to your movement, so I'm not sure it adds a lot.
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
Sorry, Karm. Uru is probably the best (i.e. worst) example of a direct control game that was so difficult to maneuver the character that I couldn't enjoy it. I kept falling into crevasses or getting snagged on furniture or walking in place for no apparent reason. I also had issues with direct control in Sentinel (a.k.a. Realms of Illusion). For example, there was one particular out-of-the-way switch that I had to visit a dozen times, and it was a major chore to climb the 10-flight staircase to get to it. I wish it had one of those short-cut lightning bolts to zip through places that have already been visited.
Uru? was that one of the myst games?
Well the falling into crevas thing isnt the fault of Direct control, it sounds like bad design.
And having to climb a big staircase for an out of the way switch isnt the fault of Direct control either, cause point and click wouldnt make it go any faster
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Bennett
I've been having a lot of difficulty getting to grips with some of the control schemes in recent games. Grim Fandango is a good example. I don't mind the keyboard, but I find it very counterintuitive to spin the character and then move backwards and forwards at that angle.
Well, personally I find character-relative controls 10x more intuitive than camera-relative one, but that's a subjective matter. But, as Karmillo noted, Grim allows you to choose between the two, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
Adventure gamers who play a lot of shooters and Tomb Raider type of games will not sympathize much with guys like Gordon and me. To them, direct control has become second nature, but to us undextrous schleps it can be a major distraction.

The joy of adventure gaming, for me, is to figure stuff out. By "stuff" I mean story elements and puzzles, not the controls. Maybe it comes down to personality. I'd rather be an officer than a grunt. I want to think about the big picture and leave the petty details to automation. I don't want to have to micromanage every single step that my character takes.
Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but you are being a bit unfair here. If you don't like direct control, fine. But as you said, there are those players to whom it does feel like a second nature, and they do feel as much in control (or "officers") as you do with point'n'click. To them it doesn't feel like micro-management.
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Old 05-01-2006, 09:56 AM   #27
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Not sure how I was being unfair, because I agree with everything you just said. Maybe it was my choice of the word "grunt"? Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. In my mind, it's no worse to be a grunt than to be an "undextrous schlep." I always strive to deprecate myself as much as my readers.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:27 PM   #28
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I do play a lot of "Tomb Raider style" games (in fact, the last few commercial games I played were Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, POP: Two Thrones, Beyond Good & Evil, Psychonauts, Fahrenheit, Dreamfall and the Tomb Raider Legends demo, so I guess lately I only play that type of games), but I agree that direct control is a bit micro-managey for adventure games. In the best 3rd-person 3D games, moving around is a thrill. It's just plain fun to run along walls, jump, twist, skid, zigzag, climb, crouch and dive (and sometimes fly, float, bounce and roll, depending on the game); throwing the camera around to inspect every angle, or just to admire the view.

I haven't seen an adventure game that offers that thrill (to any great degree), and I'm not sure it's possible while remaining a real adventure (though improving the camera controls would do a great deal to help). That leaves guiding every step of my character as essentially a chore.

I played Dreamfall pretty much all day yesterday, and it certainly did occur to me that I had better things to do than making sure Zoe could cross the street without getting stuck behind a crate. Or, rather, that I wish there were better things to do in the game than making sure Zoe didn't get stuck behind crates.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by After a brisk nap
In the best 3rd-person 3D games, moving around is a thrill. It's just plain fun to run along walls, jump, twist, skid, zigzag, climb, crouch and dive (and sometimes fly, float, bounce and roll, depending on the game); throwing the camera around to inspect every angle, or just to admire the view.
That's what was fun in Psychonauts - all the hops and jumps and boings Raz could do. I'd do that all day instead of fight Censors.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:22 PM   #30
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People just like different stuff. I'll happily play "point and click" but I prefer direct control, as it makes me feel like I'm really there. It engages me.

Once I get into any game, I get used to the navigation (mostly). I just prefer direct control. And no, it doesn't feel like micro management to me.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
Adventure gamers who play a lot of shooters and Tomb Raider type of games will not sympathize much with guys like Gordon and me. To them, direct control has become second nature, but to us undextrous schleps it can be a major distraction.
Excuse me, but the very first time I played console games (Tomb Raider: TLR, Silent Hill, etc.) I was also as undextrous as you are now. But I kept playing the games, and THAT'S WHY direct control has become second nature to me.

On that note why should I sympathize with you? If I can keep practicing and getting better (as those who whined and bitched when the mouse first came out and began replacing keyboard controls got better by simply complying and practicing), so can you and a lot of others.

Quote:
The joy of adventure gaming, for me, is to figure stuff out. By "stuff" I mean story elements and puzzles, not the controls. Maybe it comes down to personality. I'd rather be an officer than a grunt. I want to think about the big picture and leave the petty details to automation. I don't want to have to micromanage every single step that my character takes.
Wait, didn't even YOU first had to figure out how the use the mouse the very first time, too? And eventually it became second nature, right?
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Old 05-01-2006, 08:29 PM   #32
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Direct control allows for much greater control on where you move in the enviroment, which usually means you get where you want to, and faster. It's also much better for immersion into the world.

Non-direct control is only suitable for selecting and moving multiple objects, such as in a RTS. Given the choice between the two, I don't know anyone who uses non-direct mouse controlled movement in World of Warcraft.

Getting stuck on objects isn't always the games fault, on some games it definitely is, but there are horrible implementations of non-direct control, I've heard The Moment of Silence isn't too good in this regard. A lot of games that don't have any platforming gameplay, like Beyond Good and Evil, don't allow you to walk off cliffs. I don't really have a problem with that, in the games I have played, you must really be distracted before you're not able to see a cliff edge.

There are games that use a mouse for direct control over movement, one good example is Diablo.

I find that journeys using direct control are less anoying than ones using non-direct control, watching the computer control a character to a place, doesn't seem like playing to me. When all I'm doing is watching a game, then I start to question whether it's a game at all. Of course being as lazy as the next person I like the shortcuts where you can teleport to place where appropriate.

I find point-and-click games as easy to control as direct control games, so really it's not about focusing on higher "officer" pursuits, compared to lower "grunt" simple tasks.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
On that note why should I sympathize with you? If I can keep practicing and getting better (as those who whined and bitched when the mouse first came out and began replacing keyboard controls got better by simply complying and practicing), so can you and a lot of others.
You know... I was tempted to reply to AFGNCAAP's comment eariler pointing out that Gordon's comment was no more unfair than the fact that people post this sort of BS instead of accepting that some people just aren't good at some types of game controls. But I digress.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:24 PM   #34
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Perhaps some people aren't good at certain types of controls in games, but it certainly doesn't help that they blame some game designers for trying things different from what they expect. People like Ragnar Tornquist ultimately don't owe them anything, and my sympathies for them that a game happens to be direct control, but hey! that's reality.

Like I've always been saying, there are plenty....no, TONS of adventure games out there and upcoming that already have controls they're used to playing, and games like Dreamfall as still in the extreme minority. So YOUR BS is not appreciated, Jeysie. Certainly not by me. If you don't like the controls in these games, you can always go play another adventure game with controls you do like.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aj_
There are games that use a mouse for direct control over movement, one good example is Diablo.
Only it's not, Diablo uses a classic point & click interface. But Sanitarium is one of those games.

EDIT: Actually, if my memory serves me well, you can use both in Diablo so you just might be right.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:34 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
So YOUR BS is not appreciated, Jeysie. Certainly not by me. If you don't like the controls in these games, you can always go play another adventure game with controls you do like.
Hmm. Would that I actually gave you any BS about game controls to complain about, eh?

While I dislike direct control, I'm not going to weigh in whether game designers should use it or not. If a game designer does use a control system I don't like, I'll just do what I always do... shrug and play something else.

No, I was commenting on nothing more than your attitude of "if you're not good at it, it means you're not trying hard enough," which is admittedly is one of my "buttons". Rather ironic that you gave me a snotty attitude in response to my complaining about your original snotty attitude.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
No, I was commenting on nothing more than your attitude of "if you're not good at it, it means you're not trying hard enough," which is admittedly is one of my "buttons". Rather ironic that you gave me a snotty attitude in response to my complaining about your original snotty attitude.
Yeah, whatever, girl. Just keep telling yourself that. You wanna keep at it do it on your own time, not on this forum's time. And that's my final word on it so let's move back on topic.
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:05 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crapstorm
Not sure how I was being unfair, because I agree with everything you just said. Maybe it was my choice of the word "grunt"? Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. In my mind, it's no worse to be a grunt than to be an "undextrous schlep." I always strive to deprecate myself as much as my readers.
Off topic: Hi Crapsorm, mate remember me? So you also ended up here like me after being kicked out of JA+ forums? Man, I also did the same mistake as you and boom! banned. It is good to see that you are not changed a bit, thumbs up!

On direct controls, I like them, more intuitive than point-and-click, more sense of immersion, what more do you want, eh? Wii?
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:58 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by After a brisk nap
I do play a lot of "Tomb Raider style" games (in fact, the last few commercial games I played were Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, POP: Two Thrones, Beyond Good & Evil, Psychonauts, Fahrenheit, Dreamfall and the Tomb Raider Legends demo, so I guess lately I only play that type of games), but I agree that direct control is a bit micro-managey for adventure games. In the best 3rd-person 3D games, moving around is a thrill. It's just plain fun to run along walls, jump, twist, skid, zigzag, climb, crouch and dive (and sometimes fly, float, bounce and roll, depending on the game); throwing the camera around to inspect every angle, or just to admire the view.

I haven't seen an adventure game that offers that thrill (to any great degree), and I'm not sure it's possible while remaining a real adventure (though improving the camera controls would do a great deal to help). That leaves guiding every step of my character as essentially a chore.

I played Dreamfall pretty much all day yesterday, and it certainly did occur to me that I had better things to do than making sure Zoe could cross the street without getting stuck behind a crate. Or, rather, that I wish there were better things to do in the game than making sure Zoe didn't get stuck behind crates.
That's exactly what I didn't understand in Crapstorm's post (I was not so much saying that he is unfair to people, but rather that he is not giving the interface enough credit). Outside of hardcore simulation genre, I think majority of games strive to have as much transparent, and as little overwhelming, controls as possible. In particular, I always associated direct control with a highly *fluent* movement (as opposed to step-by-step, as you guys present it). In a perfect world, I mean. In practice, of course, it may not work because of either bad design decisions or player's lack of skill (or both), but that doesn't mean direct control is inherently a more micro-managey option. In Moment of Silence p'n'c also felt like a micro-management chore to me, but the problem lied in bad pathfinding, not the point'n'click as such.

As for "pure" adventure games where moving (in this case, crawling ) around is a joy in itself, Bad Mojo instantly comes to mind.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:56 AM   #40
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Quote:
As for "pure" adventure games where moving (in this case, crawling ) around is a joy in itself, Bad Mojo instantly comes to mind.
This would be the only game I ever finished that used keyboard control, and let me tell you it was not easy. Sure scuttling across large areas was managable, but the finesse/dexterity needed to get across some challenges was almost impossible for me.
Spoiler:
(spider and cigarette butt in particular)
But I perservered because they were in the minority of the puzzles and loved the maze feel of the game. My skills did get marginally better by the end of the game (I didn't have to keep looking down as much), but never enough to entice me to use the keyboard again in any game. Perhaps if I kept at it, it would become easy, but these are games after all and if I feel like I'm working at it, it takes all the fun away. Besides, as someone else replied, there are a good choice of mouse driven games to play, so I'll give my support to those instead.
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