[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by Jon K

Maybe what this is all about is "character arc". April has a well-defined one... but does Manny in Grim Fandango? Does Guybrush, do the DOTT gang? Does Ben in Full Throttle? They are good characters, all of them, but the events of the game don't change them. The games are a funny, irrelevant side-story in the grand scheme of their lives.

character arc is approrpiate for The Longest Journey. Manny certainly develops throughout Grim Fandango in much the same way that many noir heroes do, which is the point. Ben is clearly designed with the motorcyclist heroes of 50s movies like the Wild Ones and those characters tended to stay more or less as they were by the end. But even so I think Ben does develop, because his character certainyl could have been a lot flatter and 2-dimensional (no pun intended) than he ended up being--a hardened cyclist capable of love and with his heart in the right place. And Raz undergoes some character development certainly.

The characters in DOTT and Monkey Island don't need arc because it wouldn't be approapriate in the context of the game (tell me if there is a lot of arc in any great real comedy, as opposed to dramedies).

[jjacob]

Someone ought to make a counter for how often these threads re-occur here on the forums, might be quite revealing for those of your with apparent memory loss/selective memory

[Fop]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Sure, control freaks get the job done, but would they necessarily be people you'd enjoy being mentored by, or even just plain ol' hanging out with?

I'm not saying that auteurs shouldn't be control freaks. I'm saying that we shouldn't consider them as gods and worship them.

That's just not relevant. I only care about the art they produce.

[NcroManiac]

There's a thin line between a contol freek and a visionary.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Jon K

Maybe what this is all about is "character arc". April has a well-defined one... but does Manny in Grim Fandango? Does Guybrush, do the DOTT gang? Does Ben in Full Throttle? They are good characters, all of them, but the events of the game don't change them. The games are a funny, irrelevant side-story in the grand scheme of their lives.

Going back to the control issue, Tim's control goes as far as he picks the right people and gives them a playground in which to work. I am not sure where this theory of Tim's Grand General Control Freakitude thing came up and why I am humoring it. It is irrelevant and possibly not true.

His medium is the cliché and he has full control over that—other designers fell pray to the cliché. Tim's characters are his own, and he gives them life without drowning you in ridiculously irrelevant aspects of their lives.

In fact, he only gives them character through the minute details. He could've easily told us everything about Manny's real life, "the fat days", but he tells us nothing. It is not because he never really thought about it, that he somehow forgot about it—it is because he thought it didn't fit in, that it was more interesting for Manny to not know why he has to do community service in hell. The love between Manny and Meche is really bizarre, idealistic thing. The relationship between April Ryan and the bartender dude is completely gratuitous and not really interesting. It smacks of a sitcom relationship and folds out like so:

April: "Hi Charlie, how are you."
Charlie: "Awesome!"
April: "How's your DANCING CAREER coming along?"
Charlie: "Oh, excellent! I am really good at it! I was BORN to be a DANCER, girl!"
April: "That is so true, you like dancing a lot and I like you for it. You have dreams. I like dreams. I am all for dreams. Dreams are good."
Charlie: "I just wish you knew that I also liked and dreamed about you, girl. I like you and dream about you, like, carnally... I want to like you ALL THE TIME and OFTEN..."
April: "What was that?"
Charlie: "Oh, nothing. *SIGH* *SIGH* *SIGH*"
April: "You're a really good FRIEND, Charlie, a heckofa FRIEND even. I've put you in the FRIEND box, Charlie, because that is what you are. A FRIEND. Come here and give me a FRIENDLY hug."
Zapp Brannigan: "Ooooh! Cock-block'd! DEE-nied!"

It takes great restraint and artistry not to go down a bullet list of WHO THIS CHARACTER IS and address all line items. Very few people seem to be able to do so.

Originally Posted by jjacob

Someone ought to make a counter for how often these threads re-occur here on the forums, might be quite revealing for those of your with apparent memory loss/selective memory

I think that, going back a few years, I started more or less all of those.

[jjacob]

I agree though, Still Life's got nothing on Full Throttle, but TLJ was one damn good game in my book. Perhaps we shouldn't compare but just appreciate each one within their own respective periods (that sentence somehow sounds wrong but whatever).

[Bastich]

Originally Posted by Dasilva

Everyone knows Roberta Williams is the god of adventure games.

Yeah, it's too bad she ran out of Western myths and fairy tales to plagiarize and was forced into retirement because of it...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

LMAO!!!!

You're evil.

[eriq]

so bad.

Roberta was a pioneer in my opinion. Very forward thinking. A modern-day fairytale storyteller. Her family games weren't always my cup of tea but she earned her place in adventure gaming. "The Colonel's Bequest" was a masterpiece.

[Kurufinwe]

I really don't want to get into a Williams vs. Schafer war, but it certainly bugs me when people start picking on Roberta Williams, especially when those people are often otherwise clamouring for more innovation for adventure games. There are very few designers who actually brought forward real innovation, who really did something new design-wise. Some did it once in their lives, some twice. Roberta Williams did it three times: with Mystery House, with King's Quest and with The Colonel's Bequest. Granted, the last time was almost 20 years ago. Granted, she always was a terrible writer. But that doesn't prevent me from having the utmost respect for her.

Schafer, on the other hand, is just some decent writer. Sure, that still puts him far above most of the people in computer gaming (including adventure gaming), but the fact that he shines by comparison with the overall mediocrity of the industry tells us more about the industry itself than about his personal merits.

[Rowne]

All I have to say is for shame.

To be honest, I thought people who liked Gods had learned the evils of missionaries. Just because one person likes a God (usually due to insecurities leading to the need to believe that one is acting on the authority of a higher-power, that's what my minors in psychology taught me anyway), it doesn't mean that everyone should. I can understand defending one's beliefs but when it comes to using one's beliefs to defeat another's beliefs, that's the work of repressing free thought and then you're a bloody missionary! ;p

Now I bet if you asked Tim Schafer whether he wanted a missionary to speak in the name of his holy image, he'd tell the person who asked to stick that idea where the sun don't shine.

Personally, I like an adventure game based purely on the merits of whether it's good or not. Every creator is capable of making both good and bad games. The Longest Journey was fun but so was Full Throttle. Both for completely different reasons. Trying to use chalk to defeat cheese simply isn't the act of a wise man.

Such is my opinion and so I have spoken.

[Junkface]

Sacrilege! The mighty Schafer demands a sacrifice!

[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Schafer, on the other hand, is just some decent writer. Sure, that still puts him far above most of the people in computer gaming (including adventure gaming), but the fact that he shines by comparison with the overall mediocrity of the industry tells us more about the industry itself than about his personal merits.

Are you insane?

[Toefur]

Tim Schafer is okay. Certainly no point getting so excited and wound up though.

[Starflux]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

In fact, he only gives them character through the minute details. He could've easily told us everything about Manny's real life, "the fat days", but he tells us nothing.

When I played Grim again a week ago I noticed indeed how incredibly subtle the game is. How little is explained, yet how effective that is in the richness of the setting. It's almost symbolic, or even homeopathic; just by referencing a couple of times to 'the Christmas party' the notion is put down that Manny's been in the office for so long and there are hundreds of anecdotes like that swarming around. Boy, the thing I'm writing is going to be so overtly explicit in comparison.

[Naveed]

Originally Posted by Rowne

The Longest Journey was fun but so was Full Throttle. Both for completely different reasons. Trying to use chalk to defeat cheese simply isn't the act of a wise man.

But still, some people in their right mind do rate "Still F*****g Life" higher than Full Throttle! Come on, this is just incredible, blasphemy is a small word for it. Still Life better than Full Throttle, dear God

[playing_games]

Originally Posted by Naveed

But still, some people in their right mind do rate "Still F*****g Life" higher than Full Throttle! Come on, this is just incredible, blasphemy is a small word for it. Still Life better than Full Throttle, dear God

I guess I'm one of those people who are out of their mind. I have played through Still Life and Full Throttle twice and have to say Still Life was a better game. I enjoyed Full Throttle but it had many flows including having a story that I just couldn't relate to and found a bit boring. I have a feeling that if Full Throttle had been created by an unknown developer and published by a company other than LA, a lot of people would be rating the game lower.

I replayed Full Throttle just last year after reading through a thread at AG that discussed interaction density, so I was paying particular attention to that aspect while playing the game. It was true that you could interact with a lot of things in the game but most of that interaction was absolutely meaningless, repetitive, and unfunny. Hearing "I'm not putting my lips on that" again and again was just about as interesting as hearing "I don't have to go down there" in other games. I believe that many people overlook flaws in Full Throttle because it was created by Tim Schaffer. It's by far the weakest of LA adventure games (and I played them all with the exception of EMI and Loom).

I'd personally give Still Life a B+ and Full Throttle a B-. That's of course just my opinion so do me a favor and educate me please. What makes (other that that it was created by TS) Full Throttle such a superb game?

[Lacrima]

The characters in DOTT and Monkey Island don't need arc because it wouldn't be approapriate in the context of the game (tell me if there is a lot of arc in any great real comedy, as opposed to dramedies).

I don't know if character development is actually something opposed to comedy/something that wouldn't fit in an humorous game. It isn't necessary, granted, but I think it would be possible. But that just as a side note, what I originally intended to say was:
That's what this is about, in my opinion. If you don't like comedy, but those 'dramatic', 'plot-driven', 'new age' adventures, you kinda have every right to say you prefer 'Adventure Games' over Tim Schafer (referring to the thread title).
And I absolutely hate this "OH-MY-GOSH,-how-can-you-be-so-STUPID-to-say-any-adventure-over-3 years-old-or-not-made-by-Tim-Schafer-is-BETTER-than-his-games!?!?!!1ß1"-attitude.
To like other games better is a legal opinion, really.
Maybe I'm just too young for these true classics/oldies, - and I don't want to make a judgement here, since I must admit, I haven't played too many of those - but I DO like Still Life, and I partially was frustrated with Monkey Island (it was funny, but not my kind of game. TAKE THAT, GROUPIES! A different opinion!*) or never really could get into DoTT.
Now I want a minute alone, some time to dig my grave, built a wall against the incoming stones, prepare for battle - that stuff.

*I know this wasn't created by Tim Schafer.

[Naveed]

Originally Posted by Lacrima

Now I want a minute alone, some time to dig my grave, built a wall against the incoming stones, prepare for battle - that stuff..

You don't need to worry, because since you

Originally Posted by Lacrima

never really could get into DoTT.

there is nothing really left to be said or battle for.

[Naveed]

Originally Posted by playing_games

That's of course just my opinion so do me a favor and educate me please. What makes (other that that it was created by TS) Full Throttle such a superb game?

Where to start, Full Throttle was to put simply, fun to play. It was FUN to play, something that is non-existent in current generation of adventure games, which are pathetically boring. May it be Still Life or Syberia, they are devoid of the charm of the earlier games. There can be many reasons for that, everyone can have their own, one possible reason can be that at the time when FT was released, adventure games were continuously evolving, the new iterations were fresh, they had something new to offer. The ones that we get now are simple imitation of the glorius past that so on surface look pretty but the spirit is not there anymore