[indyjones2131]

Seems like a lot of folks don't like either of these things in their adventure games, but I usually like the added pressure. If a timed puzzle is handled fairly, it adds some excitment and incentive to think fast and REALLY use your head. Normally these come when you have all of the items you might need in your inventory which is nice. I hate when you really want to think of how to get past a situation, but you aren't even sure if you have the item yet - so its in the back of your mind that all the head scratching may be for nothing.

So what are some good examples of bad and good time puzzles or deaths?

Can you recommend a game with the good kind? (falling of the pier in KQ6 = bad. Getting shot in police quest = good.)

[Panthera]

Tiled floor in "museum" room in Overseer.. bad.. But you had all needed inventory items, and I guess you knew what you were supposed to do.. Still hated it..

[indyjones2131]

Hmm, never played any of the Tex Murphy games. I can never find them anywhere. Too bad there's no place to download them for 20 bucks or something - legally of course.

[Panthera]

Saw them on sale on ebay for a few bucks.. There are a few copies of the latest games, ecspecially overseer..

[kuddles]

I also find timed puzzles and dying to be not as bad as some people make it. As with most things, the problem lies in the fact that they tend to be abused.

I would say one excellent example is Shadow of Destiny. (I think it was called something else in the UK). (EDIT:Shadow of Memories) It took the well-known convention of dying in a game and turned it on it's head. Not only are you not really punished for dying, it can acutally be helpful, and in some cases necessary. It was also one continoous timed puzzle, since every chapter had you trying to prevent your own death from contiously occuring.

I won't spoil it for those who hadn't played it, so I'll just say there was one part in the otherwise excellent Broken Sword game that was frustraing. Basically, you had to make the right dialogue choices every time or you would die. The problem was that I had to keep reloading my game and going through the entire dialogue, hoping you made the right choices again.

But then, that has more to do with some puzzles being trial and error, which is weak in my opinion.

[Maquisard]

The final action scene in Full Throttle was pretty cool.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Mares

The final action scene in Full Throttle was pretty cool.

Yes, that was a good one.

Of course, being Lucasarts meant that dying wasn't the end. Ben (the lead character says "Ugh, let's try that again") and you get to retry the whole sequence over to get it right.

I don't mind timed puzzles and death as such. Its when a timed/death puzzle appears without any advance warning. Without an autosave system you can get totally screwed over and have to replay a larger chunk of the game.

Looking at this from the opposite side you could say a lack of timed puzzles harms the immersive quality of a game. If nothing changes until you do something then you have the world obviously revolving around you. This is inappropriate for 99% of game lead characters.

Revolutions "Virtual Theater" system went some way to dealing with this problem. Certain characters moved around thus disguising the fact that the game world usually only changed when you did things.

[Huz]

Bad timed puzzles? Anything that doesn't give you enough time to respond practically. The timed puzzles towards the end of Monkey Island 2 are pretty bad - even if you know what you need to do, there's hardly enough time for all the clicking required. This doesn't exactly encourage you to experiment. Not cool.

Timed puzzles in text adventures, too. It's not supposed to be a speed-reading test, but I've actually played text adventures where text has scrolled away and I've died before I've had chance to read about the puzzle! I'm not a slow reader either.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by Huz

Timed puzzles in text adventures, too. It's not supposed to be a speed-reading test, but I've actually played text adventures where text has scrolled away and I've died before I've had chance to read about the puzzle! I'm not a slow reader either.

I'd be interested to know what games you had that happen in. The only text adventure I've come across that operated in real-time (i.e. time passed even when you didn't type anything) was Border Zone from Infocom. Otherwise timed puzzles in text adventures seemed to be of the "you have x numbers of moves to solve this or die" type.

I agree that real-timed puzzles in text adventures are a bazd thing because it requires a particular skill (fast reading) of the player which they might not have. Then agian, I suppose that isn't really any different to requiring fast reactions from an FPSer.

[jjacob]

I wouldn't mind being able to die in adventure games; I enjoyed it in the Broken Sword series and I'm used to it in other game genres. I don't mind timed puzzles either, unless they're horribly out-of-place or badly executed.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Mares

The final action scene in Full Throttle was pretty cool.

I just bought Full Throttle. Are there both timed puzzles and the chance of dying in it?

[Maquisard]

It's just a timed puzzle. As far as I remember, if you don't do it in time, the character dies (in theory), but it takes you to the beggining of the sequence, so it's no big deal.

[Fop]

I think they are both cop outs for people not skilled enough to make real pressure through better ways than annoying the player.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by LenaJ

I just bought Full Throttle. Are there both timed puzzles and the chance of dying in it?

No death. It's a Lucasarts game. They were never big on death.

Unless you just bought the rare Sierra remake in which case I should save every five seconds if I were you.

[Gordon Bennett]

Oh, I *detest* timed sequences and death in adventure games. They can absolutely destroy the appeal of a game for me, and have brought a few to a notably premature end.

Awful, just awful. It's such a betrayal of what adventures are all about, I think. The whole point is to explore, experiment, and think your way through.

When you can die in a game, it breaks up the immersion, because at the very least, you have to pull yourself out of the game to save before trying anything. Timed sequences are even worse, partially because they so often involve a death sequence to enforce the time limit, but mainly because they ruin the fun of exploring and enjoying the scenery.

The only even remotely tolerable one I can think of is the one in Monkey Island 1. The timing is so generous, that it can almost be considered an easter egg rather than a timed puzzle, and it really does add an extra layer to one of the jokes in the game.

[Lacrima]

What's the difference between most timed sequences and death? In most cases, if you don't manage to do something in time, you die, anyway. (While trying again is often even worse than dying, if the game restores your status automatically)

I think it's all about execution. Sometimes, the possibility of death can make a game really interesting, create tension, make it even more realistic. I think if someone would point a gun at my character, and I just knew I couldn't die, it wouldn't be as near as interesting as to think fast and try to react. In Broken Sword, for example, being able to die didn't bother me at all. It fits the game quite well, in my opinion.
If one can die because of some absolutely unexpected stupidity ("Oh, a bush with berries, how absolutely lovely!" Reaches out to it - some deadly snake emerges and bites you - Game Over) I do care and it does bother me. Such scenarios have nothing to do with the game and don't make sense, in my opinion.

Timed puzzles as in "bring this keg of grog to this place, before it melts" are a stupid way to prevent players from using something with everything. Its just a medium to make the player think - and an annoying indeed. If one [as in the developer] isn't able to find proper ways to challenge the player, one shouldn't punish other players who can't react that fast or whose mouse isn't working that well for one second.
It depends on the style of the adventure, though (and I don't mean traditional whatever) - if an adventure is more action-orientated without being a shooter I think its appropriate to create a puzzle, where you have to do something in a certain amount of time.

"It's such a betrayal of what adventures are all about, I think."
I respect your opinion about timed puzzles and death in adventure games, but disagree that they actually 'betray' the genre.
Adventure games are about exploring a world and telling a story more than any other genre, I guess (at least lately, some earlier adventures were really more about throwing puzzles after you, in my (humble) opinion), but it is the developer's choice what game to create and if they want to create a suspenseful, engaging mystery, sometimes there is the need of the possibility to overstep. I just couldn't find myself easily drawn into a detective story if there wasn't at least the chance I might be under pressure - the feeling should exist, and at some point it should actually be possible I could fail due to my unreasonable actions. It's not as if it isn't possible to create a thrilling game without death or time limits, but it certainly is a proper way to capture someone's attention - in spite of the fact that it may mean a partly loss of audience. And after all, though it is timed, it doesn't mean you don't have to think. You just have to think fast, and there's hardly something wrong with that.

[TekXombie]

Shadow of Destiny was a great example but one bad, bad example was the ending levels in Psychonauts, I know it doesnt necessarily classify as adventure on this forum but being a Tim fan I felt that entire game was beautiful except for the last levels... gah, i pulled my hair out so many times!

[Fop]

Broken Sword handled dying well, granted.

[Huz]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

I'd be interested to know what games you had that happen in. The only text adventure I've come across that operated in real-time (i.e. time passed even when you didn't type anything) was Border Zone from Infocom. Otherwise timed puzzles in text adventures seemed to be of the "you have x numbers of moves to solve this or die" type.

I am thinking specifically of 'West' and 'Zkul' for the Sinclair QL, both written by the same bloke. Some guy recently wrapped them in an emulator and released them as a package for the PC, if you're interested in checking them out.

Both of these games were 'real-time' in a general sense, in that time would pass independent of how many 'moves' you had taken. Zkul featured 'hunger' and 'thirst', which was seriously annoying. West featured "ill-tempered bank robbers" roaming the countryside, and if you couldn't type "shoot robber" fast enough you were dead. Not really a puzzle, that one...

The particular puzzle I was thinking about in my original moan, where text scrolled away faster than it could be read, was from Zkul...

Spoiler:

A large room, where taking a necessary 'treasure hunt' object from the centre would trigger the walls closing in. Cue several paragraphs of description, with more appearing at intervals. This scrolled the existing text, making it very hard to focus on, and I don't think I ever managed to read it all before it was scrolled away by the 'You are dead!' messages. Very annoying.

It was doubly annoying because I think I had the answer - but of course, making the parser understand in a limited time was a whole other matter...

Good games though. I'll complete them some day.

[indyjones2131]

yeah, there is definitely a right and wrong way to do these, but I think death is a perfectly good motivation to really think! Of course a nice little retry button goes a long way.

As for timed puzzles, in moderation they are also a great motivation to think fast. I like the pressure of having to disarm a ticking bomb or escape a pit using my noggin and a few random items.

I am actually looking for a game that does this well. I want a more serious adventure game with danger at every turn and clever escapes.

Any ideas?