[Steve Ince]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

The next best thing for us is Virtools I guess, since that's what the Syberia games used. Unfortunately, to get an evaluation version of the software you have to fill out a form and one of the questions is: "What is the budget of your game?" And the MINIMUM is $50,000. Virtools is apparently not for indie designers. The full version of the software is $9,500. So, we still aren't quite sure what we're going to do... However, we are working on the art, music, writing, and puzzle design until we find the program we'll use to put it all together.

Even though the Syberia games used Virtools, doesn't mean it's right for you. The people behind Syberia will have used Virtools to develop their game engine, it's not an adventure game engine in itself. Wintermute and Adventure Game Studio are both dedicated adventure engines with the tools to put together quality games and save you a lot of time in the process. They already have the mechanisms in place to handle inventories, dialogue, etc., so why reinvent the wheel?

[Tobbe]

Yep, I like it, I think it´s brings another dimension to the game, like in BS games, where you can play both Nico and George..

[MoriartyL]

Whether or not the narrative technique of switching between characters has been well utilized is a matter for debate. Nonetheless, there are a million and one very good ways to do so, and I can't think of a single reason, even in theory, not to go with multiple PCs if the story calls for it. (Of course it all should start from the story, but that's a general issue and is not a unique concern with this feature.) What's this "interruption of flow" you talk about? As far as I can tell, it doesn't actually mean anything. Are you afraid the player would get confused? We're not that stupid. Or are you worried that the game will feel disjointed? But disjointedness can be a good thing, if used well! It all boils down to the reasons for using it.

[fov]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Nonetheless, there are a million and one very good ways to do so, and I can't think of a single reason, even in theory, not to go with multiple PCs if the story calls for it.

I think this is the key point developers should be thinking about when they're deciding if they should go this route.

There are a lot of novels that work very well with multiple points of view (think As I Lay Dying). But there are also novels that do it because the author apparently couldn't come up with a good way to tell the story from just one character's point of view, and in the finished product it comes across as disjointed and lazy.

Same with games, I think. If you have a valid reason for doing it that works with your story or enhances your gameplay, then do. But if you're just doing it because it seems like a novel or trendy idea -- or if it's the easiest way to get around certain issues that you can't figure out how to rectify in the story or gameplay -- then maybe you should rethink whether it's really vital.

[the gnome]

Oh, and please don't forget Day of the Tentacle... The three characters interact and even merge in an excellent way...

[Once A Villain]

Good points Moriarty and fov. Multiple PCs should certainly be important and helpful to the story, not just tossed together as a gimmick. I think the way I'm wanting to use it is pretty good, but I still don't know if I want the two characters sort of working together at times and sharing inventories (like DOTT) or just be completely independent of the other (like in the GK games).

Anyway, back to the engine issues... We are looking at WinterMute now because of recommendations here. The only issues I see are the resolution (we want a 1280x720 max, if possible), and I'm not sure if it's good for animated backgrounds. Let me try to explain the look we are going for ok?

I have already said a Syberia II look would be nice, but let me go further. Think Myst IV, without the 360 degree panning (just one flat screen for each environment), but with the level of detail of Myst IV in terms of animation. We want the trees to blow in the breeze, clouds to drift slowly, maybe fog to gently glide across certain environments, flames to flicker, water to move, bugs to fly around in certain scenes (maybe birds too), rain and snow to fall, etc. We want the environments to be pre-rendered shots, but ALIVE with animation. Can this be done effectively in WinterMute?

As for our characters, we are still toying with the idea of 2D or 3D. That's not as important to us right now.

[Kurufinwe]

I think I'm with MoriartyL here. I mean, it's always possible, of course, to go wrong with anything, but I've tried thinking of all the games I've played that allowed you to play multiple characters to some extent*, and I can't really think of any where it felt awfully wrong. The worst case is possibly GK2, where having Gabriel and Grace communicate by mail introduced some interesting time distorsions, but that's about it. Can anyone provide an example of a game which used multiple playable characters and where it felt like a design flaw?

(Of course, I'm not saying that it's the magic recipe to make a great game; just that I'm not convinced there's much chance of it feeling bad if there's some remote reason to introduce it.)

* That would be: DOTT, Still Life, BS2, BS3, GK2, GK3, Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes 2, Feeble Files, TMOS, Indy 4, KQ7, Indy 3, Maniac Mansion, Zak, Heart of China, LSL3, LSL5, Fahrenheit, Schizm. Wow, that's a lot! Don't think of using multiple playable characters just because you think it's innovative: it's not.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

I have already said a Syberia II look would be nice, but let me go further. Think Myst IV, without the 360 degree panning (just one flat screen for each environment), but with the level of detail of Myst IV in terms of animation. We want the trees to blow in the breeze, clouds to drift slowly, maybe fog to gently glide across certain environments, flames to flicker, water to move, bugs to fly around in certain scenes (maybe birds too), rain and snow to fall, etc. We want the environments to be pre-rendered shots, but ALIVE with animation.

Can you really do that with a two unpaid men team?
And do you need to go to such (possibly utopic) extent to reach your goal? I mean, look at Darkfall. It was years behind in terms of graphics, but still was sold all around the world, and, I terms of amateur AGs, was rather successful.

I'm not trying to diss you or anything, I'm just curious...

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Can you really do that with a two unpaid men team?

Good question. Our ambitions could very well be much larger than our actual abilities.

Originally Posted by Ninth

And do you need to go to such (possibly utopic) extent to reach your goal? I mean, look at Darkfall. It was years behind in terms of graphics, but still was sold all around the world, and, I terms of amateur AGs, was rather successful.

I'm not trying to diss you or anything, I'm just curious...

Nah, I totally understand. You make good points. It's just hard for me to envision the game in my head (and the story in my head, and these characters that I'm close too already) being reduced to still shot backgrounds. I just find them so...dead. They worked fine for Darkfall actually, but I just can't see my story and our game that way.

However, I recently had an idea that maybe we could do a much less ambitious 1 hour to 2 hour little "preview" game that could potentially get some developers interested in helping us create the game we really want to make. But would that really work? There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of interest in adventure games as far as picking up new "talent". Indie designers generally stay indie designers. Also, Dreamcatcher wouldn't even pay for Jane Jensen's new game, so what the hell kind of chance do WE have, you know?

[Corley]

Hmm, multiple characters is all good and well when its worth doing, and generally of the purpose to build the character. Putting them in because of a certain puzzle of can be a little cheap, unless it happens alot i guess and is generally a mechanic of the game.

As for winterminute that looks pretty sweet was news to me, has got me interested it anywho.

As for animated backgrounds etc, while i'm not syberia/myst buff surely ya could just use techniques like tMoS does i.e 3d rendered backdrops with little animations of ceiling fans, trains passing in the backdrops to make them seem more alive, from reading lightly it supports sprites and video entities, guys were talking aboot making animated skys etc using various techniques based on performance preference in the forums.

Project Joe, is it looks awesome. I hate ppl that can draw

[samIamsad]

Are you afraid the player would get confused? We're not that stupid. Or are you worried that the game will feel disjointed? But disjointedness can be a good thing, if used well!

http://baf.wurb.com/if/game/255
(Not that it's likely to see something like this as a commercial game, sadly. In fact, it isn't much of a game. At all. Play and see.)

Originally Posted by fov

IThere are a lot of novels that work very well with multiple points of view (think As I Lay Dying).

There is a book of that name? I only know the band.

[Steve Ince]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

I have already said a Syberia II look would be nice, but let me go further. Think Myst IV, without the 360 degree panning (just one flat screen for each environment), but with the level of detail of Myst IV in terms of animation. We want the trees to blow in the breeze, clouds to drift slowly, maybe fog to gently glide across certain environments, flames to flicker, water to move, bugs to fly around in certain scenes (maybe birds too), rain and snow to fall, etc. We want the environments to be pre-rendered shots, but ALIVE with animation. Can this be done effectively in WinterMute?

Yes, this can be done, though it will be a huge memory hit. What you actually should be thinking about is the time it will take to create these resources which are really superficial to the gameplay, even if they make the game look wonderful. Teams of 30 often struggle to put in the level of animation detail you're talking about. Look at Broken Sword 3 - animation was the largest single part of the budget, yet we couldn't even begin to think about animating trees or clouds.

Design your game, work out the animation requirements for the gameplay related stuff, then see if you can really afford to be so ambitious with the background stuff.

However, I recently had an idea that maybe we could do a much less ambitious 1 hour to 2 hour little "preview" game that could potentially get some developers interested in helping us create the game we really want to make. But would that really work? There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of interest in adventure games as far as picking up new "talent". Indie designers generally stay indie designers. Also, Dreamcatcher wouldn't even pay for Jane Jensen's new game, so what the hell kind of chance do WE have, you know?

With only two of you, creating two hours of gameplay with as much animation detail as you're talking about is going to take a year or more at least. If you want a preview game you should look at half an hour. If the intention is to interest publishers, they will get it after half an hour, so anything else is overkill for this purpose.

I think that publishers will pick up aventure games, but only if the prospective sales justify their investment. What you're suggesting sounds like it will need an expensive budget, which is what scares away the publishers.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Nah, I totally understand. You make good points. It's just hard for me to envision the game in my head (and the story in my head, and these characters that I'm close too already) being reduced to still shot backgrounds. I just find them so...dead.

You could "cheat" and do some small animation, depending on the style of your game.

For example, Simon the Sorcerer screens were still, but sometimes a small animal would randomly cross it, which upped the immersion factor by a few notches.

[MoriartyL]

I must echo others (Boy, it's an unsettling feeling, being in agreement with others. ) and say that you shouldn't aim so high with side issues like background animations. The lower you aim there, the less you'll be tied down when it comes to more important issues like story. See, Myst needed to be gorgeous, because the world design needs to be the main attraction. But you're telling a story, with interesting characters; a "dead" background doesn't matter much in the larger scheme of things. You tell a good story, with good characters, and good puzzles, and the background pictures will become a moot point.

On the other hand, it sounds like you've worked this all out in your head already, in which case you won't listen to what we're saying. That's good. It's better for you to figure it out for yourself, and you will. Just make sure that as you're working hard on those beautiful backdrops you don't forget to make the story excellent, and you won't have any problem.

Originally Posted by samIamsad

http://baf.wurb.com/if/game/255
(Not that it's likely to see something like this as a commercial game, sadly. In fact, it isn't much of a game. At all. Play and see.)

Heh, as soon as I saw the link, I thought: "This must be Photopia he's linking to.". Yep, great game.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

Yes, this can be done, though it will be a huge memory hit. What you actually should be thinking about is the time it will take to create these resources which are really superficial to the gameplay, even if they make the game look wonderful. Teams of 30 often struggle to put in the level of animation detail you're talking about. Look at Broken Sword 3 - animation was the largest single part of the budget, yet we couldn't even begin to think about animating trees or clouds.

Design your game, work out the animation requirements for the gameplay related stuff, then see if you can really afford to be so ambitious with the background stuff.

You're probably right on. Still, your team had a much harder task right? I played Broken Sword 3 (good job by the way) and I recall it being fully 3D. We wouldn't attempt something like that yet, heh. I'm just talking pre-rendered here... You're still right, I'm sure. You obviously have a lot more experience at this stuff than I do.

There's one thing I find inspiring though. I remember when Metal Gear Solid came out on Playstation and everyone was like, "Wow! How did you guys manage visuals like that on an old system?" Hideo Kojima said he got a young, inexperienced team on purpose because they didn't know the "limitations". Now, that's probably a very rare case, but it's still sort of refreshing.

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

With only two of you, creating two hours of gameplay with as much animation detail as you're talking about is going to take a year or more at least. If you want a preview game you should look at half an hour. If the intention is to interest publishers, they will get it after half an hour, so anything else is overkill for this purpose.

I think that publishers will pick up aventure games, but only if the prospective sales justify their investment. What you're suggesting sounds like it will need an expensive budget, which is what scares away the publishers.

Well, I don't know what the Myst IV budget was, but yeah...what I'm envisioning would probably cost around the same amount. Right now nothing we are doing is from scratch though, and that's a big help. Poser 6 for characters, Vue Infinite for animated environments (though we might use another one soon instead), Texture Pack CDs, quite a few premade 3D models for buildings, castles, houses, etc., and we are even looking now at a big package of premade motion captured animations. Granted, if we had the means, this wouldn't be the way we'd go about designing this. We understand that we look REALLY cheap doing it this way, but...what else can we do, ya know?

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

But you're telling a story, with interesting characters; a "dead" background doesn't matter much in the larger scheme of things. You tell a good story, with good characters, and good puzzles, and the background pictures will become a moot point.

On the other hand, it sounds like you've worked this all out in your head already, in which case you won't listen to what we're saying. That's good. It's better for you to figure it out for yourself, and you will. Just make sure that as you're working hard on those beautiful backdrops you don't forget to make the story excellent, and you won't have any problem.

I was hoping to have all that, plus the great backgrounds. Probably too ambitious, but I can't help it.

[Steve Ince]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

You're probably right on. Still, your team had a much harder task right? I played Broken Sword 3 (good job by the way) and I recall it being fully 3D. We wouldn't attempt something like that yet, heh. I'm just talking pre-rendered here...

We did pre-rendered for In Cold Blood and it can be much more work because players expect the level of detail to be much higher.

There's one thing I find inspiring though. I remember when Metal Gear Solid came out on Playstation and everyone was like, "Wow! How did you guys manage visuals like that on an old system?" Hideo Kojima said he got a young, inexperienced team on purpose because they didn't know the "limitations". Now, that's probably a very rare case, but it's still sort of refreshing.

It's always good when people push the limits of a system. Look at what they were doing with the C64 and the Amiga towards the end of those platforms.

Well, I don't know what the Myst IV budget was, but yeah...what I'm envisioning would probably cost around the same amount.

Be careful. If you approached a publisher and said that you want to make a game that has the budget of Myst IV I honestly don't think you'd get very far. The budget on that game must have been enormous.

Right now nothing we are doing is from scratch though, and that's a big help. Poser 6 for characters, Vue Infinite for animated environments (though we might use another one soon instead), Texture Pack CDs, quite a few premade 3D models for buildings, castles, houses, etc., and we are even looking now at a big package of premade motion captured animations. Granted, if we had the means, this wouldn't be the way we'd go about designing this. We understand that we look REALLY cheap doing it this way, but...what else can we do, ya know?

It's likely not going to be an issue of looking cheap, more like you may end up with a generic look to the renders. Even games that use original assets can look a little like one another at times. One of the reasons I decided to go back to a 2D approach was to look different from what is now the "norm".

Be careful when using texcture packs or models from different sources - they may not match each other without some tweaking.

Having said all that, you seem to be aware of many of the issues, so you're not going into it with your eyes closed. I hope you're able to realise your dream.

[fov]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

There is a book of that name? I only know the band.

[url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067973225X//ref=nosim/adventuregame-20 I Lay Dying[/url] - William Faulkner

Something tells me the book came before the band.

[Rowne]

I have mixed feelings about this. If it's a means to an end in a puzzle then it shouldn't be used, all it does is help make people look like tools and that's a bad message to convey. If however it's used to give an insight into the character, their story, background and the inner-workings of their mind (Day of the Tentacle is indeed a fine example of the latter) then I'd say it's laudable.

Anyone who's seen my posts about adventure games and other genrés would know that I'm as much about plot as I am about the actual game, I like cutting away from the main character if it's going to reveal something to me about another character and the way in which they work. Conveying individuality in a game and that not one person is suited for all roles can be a very good thing. Demonstrations of talent based on a person's life spent are admirable.

I also like it when a game follows the character's mindset in how they solve a particular puzzle, I remember the Pandora Directive being a fine example of that. In fact, the leading character or characters in a really good game can define the kinds of puzzles each character can have without making them look like tools in this way. That's when it's done right, when you don't feel like they're just other objects in your inventory.

I'd say that since there are examples that show it can be done right, it's a good thing, then.

[Zanthia]

just like it was put in a poll, yes, if it is done well.

[Manhunter71]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

I've never enjoyed playable multiple characters like I did in Indigo Prophecy. It is so cool when you reall care so much for both characters, and while encountering each other, you have to choose your responses to try to screw both as little as possible.

I agree in theory, but in practice it doesn't really work for Fahrenheit - the counter for the options in this game decreases so fast that your attention is focused on the options and detracts from the story

It happens so many times in the game that it becomes quite annoying - you are in the middle of a really intense part of the story but you don't have time to enjoy it because your attention is taken away by the fact that you have to make a swift decision which will determine the outcome of the game.

This is fine in real life, because you probably wouldn't have the time to think about what you were going to do next, but in a gaming environment it just becomes frustrating.