[Eivind]

I actually think that GK3 is the best in the series. And its ending is truly epic

[Richard]

Originally Posted by mag

Right. Because fighting werewolves and evil voodoo gods is totally realistic. But demons are just silly.

In first one, the push of the battle is Gabriel's relationship with Malia, in the second, with von Glower. It's that supernatural element overlaid onto authentic human interactions. While the third is a straight up demon fight, and very silly.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Richard

In first one, the push of the battle is Gabriel's relationship with Malia, in the second, with von Glower. It's that supernatural element overlaid onto authentic human interactions. While the third is a straight up demon fight, and very silly.

So it would have been more realistic if Gabe had had a personal relationship with the demon before killing him?

mag

[Richard]

Originally Posted by mag

So it would have been more realistic if Gabe had had a personal relationship with the demon before killing him?

Or alternatively, a suitably antagonistic relationship with Montreux - the villain who spends almost the entire game entirely out of play, and who summons a demon to do his fighting for him. The great big blood drinking wuss.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by Richard

Or alternatively, a suitably antagonistic relationship with Montreux - the villain who spends almost the entire game entirely out of play, and who summons a demon to do his fighting for him. The great big blood drinking wuss.

This is an excellent point. I just played GK3 for the first time a few months ago, and was really annoyed at how little Montreaux was developed for most of the game. When he was revealed to be the Big Villain, I went "Eh...okay."

There was just no emotion attached to him, either by Gabriel or by the player, as there had been with the antagonists in the first two games. The chat Gabe had with him about his business was interesting, but it wasn't important enough on a character-development level.

[mag]

On the other hand, Gabriel Knight 3 is pretty much the only one in the series that's actually a mystery, in that you don't know who the villain is right from the beginning. And there are plenty of other interesting characters to make up for Montreaux's lack of development. So GK3 actually ends up having more character development than the previous two, just not in the main villain.

The hero doesn't always necessarily have to have a close personal bond with the villain. There's plenty of "authentic human interactions" in GK3 without Gabe having a relationship with Montreaux.

mag

[Richard]

If you don't know who the villain is about ten picoseconds after he enters the story, there's little hope for you as a detective. We're talking about a guy whose study includes a 'make an evil glowing red pentagram' puzzle, who lives in a gameworld where you can find the entrance to the Top Secret Mystery, Undiscovered For A Century while having a quick walkabout with a tourist group, and who may as well kick off his tour of Only Guy It Can Possibly Be Mansion with 'Look at our wine, red like blood. Blood! BLOOOOOOOOD! We also have Sauvignon Blanc.'

I'd actually argue that there's less of a mystery in GK3 than in any of the others - in those, you piece together the clues and take the lead, while in GK3, you largely sift through red herring after red herring until Basa shows up and tells you everything.

(Also, Gabriel is a complete prick in that game, and the rest of the cast really isn't much better. Spending time with them and their increasingly trivial, unrelated problems got tiring beyond measure after the great line-up in the previous games. Save for a few genuinely good moments, like That Night, I'd have been quite happy if a load of vampires had kicked the door down and eaten everybody)

Originally Posted by mag

The hero doesn't always necessarily have to have a close personal bond with the villain

No, but it helps if you want your final showdown with him to be dramatic and meaningful, rather than a deleted scene from Tomb Raider.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Richard

If you don't know who the villain is about ten picoseconds after he enters the story, there's little hope for you as a detective.

But that doesn't happen until about halfway through the game. So at least the mystery is suspended for a little bit. In 1 and 2, you know who the villain is by the end of the first chapter.

Originally Posted by Richard

No, but it helps if you want your final showdown with him to be dramatic and meaningful, rather than a deleted scene from Tomb Raider.

Well, I'm not nominating him for any Best Villain awards. But that's not the question. The key to a good story is conflict, not conflict specifically between the hero and the villain.

mag

[Richard]

Originally Posted by mag

Well, I'm not nominating him for any Best Villain awards. But that's not the question. The key to a good story is conflict, not conflict specifically between the hero and the villain.

I didn't find any real conflict against anything in it. Not against the villain (he was rubbish), not against time (too much meandering, no real pace), not against environment (the hole is RIGHT THERE!), not against self (Gabe didn't learn much about himself, unlike the earlier games), not against any of the standard antagonists - anthropomorphic or not.

True, you could pick individual moments of each, but I found it thoroughly boring, bland and uninteresting from about an hour into starting it with great hopes, through to it ending with a fpppt. The biggest conflict in the whole game was my patience versus Gabriel's new-found assholishness. Great premise, dull story, dull game.

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Richard

I didn't find any real conflict against anything in it. Not against the villain (he was rubbish), not against time (too much meandering, no real pace), not against environment (the hole is RIGHT THERE!), not against self (Gabe didn't learn much about himself, unlike the earlier games), not against any of the standard antagonists - anthropomorphic or not.

True, you could pick individual moments of each, but I found it thoroughly boring, bland and uninteresting from about an hour into starting it with great hopes, through to it ending with a fpppt. The biggest conflict in the whole game was my patience versus Gabriel's new-found assholishness. Great premise, dull story, dull game.

Contrvied puzzles too. Didn't you need to get some gum from a cat's ass and stick it into a hole to make the hole blow up? Something along those lines of contrivedness anyway...

[mag]

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

Contrvied puzzles too. Didn't you need to get some gum from a cat's ass and stick it into a hole to make the hole blow up? Something along those lines of contrivedness anyway...

WTF? No! It's hair from a cat to make a fake mustache. How is that so difficult?

mag

[Richard]

Don't forget! Cat fur and maple syrup to make a fake moustache to disguise yourself as a man who doesn't have a moustache. That's what makes it sane. Well. Compared with using Preparation-H to unstick a window, anyway.

Lucky thing nobody's ever bought Jensen a cuckoo clock, really.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Richard

Don't forget! Cat fur and maple syrup to make a fake moustache to disguise yourself as a man who doesn't have a moustache. That's what makes it sane.

You think Gabe looks a lot like Mosley?

mag

[Richard]

Originally Posted by mag

You think Gabe looks a lot like Mosley?

He looks almost exactly as much like Mosely normally as when he turns up with a pen-scrawled passport, and a faceful of Tiddles.

Lest we forget, the only reason for this insanity is that finding a kidnapped child believed to be imprisoned by vampiric night visitors comes second to the thought of being seen on a crappy scooter.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

Simon the Sorcerer 2

Another MI2/The Empire Strikes Back rip-off. *cough* (Sort of.)

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Richard

Don't forget! Cat fur and maple syrup to make a fake moustache to disguise yourself as a man who doesn't have a moustache. That's what makes it sane. Well. Compared with using Preparation-H to unstick a window, anyway.

Lucky thing nobody's ever bought Jensen a cuckoo clock, really.

Why did he need the moustache then?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

Why did he need the moustache then?

He scrawls one on Mosely's passport with a pen, in an attempt to hide his face. Then he needs one for himself to match, because a felt-pen scribble will look totally convincing on a photo.

[AudioSoldier]

Originally Posted by Richard

He scrawls one on Mosely's passport with a pen, in an attempt to hide his face. Then he needs one for himself to match, because a felt-pen scribble will look totally convincing on a photo.

WTF. Mag, how are you still able to defend this corny crap (AKA, GK3)?

[mag]

Originally Posted by Richard

He looks almost exactly as much like Mosely normally as when he turns up with a pen-scrawled passport, and a faceful of Tiddles.

This may be a surprise to you, but faces are less recognizable when they're half covered in facial hair. Between that and the hat, Gabe has a chance of passing himself off as the person on the ID. Without it, he'd be caught in a minute.

Originally Posted by Richard

Lest we forget, the only reason for this insanity is that finding a kidnapped child believed to be imprisoned by vampiric night visitors comes second to the thought of being seen on a crappy scooter.

So what? We can't have puzzles that are used for the purpose of character development? Besides, that bike saved Gabe's ass toward the end of the game. So quit your bitchin' and make the damn mustache.

mag

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier

WTF. Mag, how are you still able to defend this corny crap (AKA, GK3)?

Why not? It's not much worse than the cuckoo clock from GK2. Plus, it's the last *really* decent mystery ((adventure)) game experience since... oh, dear. Houston, we have a problem.