[Steve Ince]

After the heated debate in the "New Business Model" thread (http://forums.adventuregamers.com/sh...ad.php?t=10363) and some of the reactions to the cost versus playing time in the "Bone" thread (http://forums.adventuregamers.com/sh...ad.php?t=10390) I'd like to pose some questions if I may.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of asking gaming fans to part with cash in advance of any development, so I'm trying to work out some way that will enable me to bring my game ideas to fruition. I would appreciate as many serious answers to the following as possible.

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?


Thanks for your time.

[Ninth]

1. 8 hours of gameplay is a minimum for me for this price. But 10 would be better (something like BS3).

2. Not very happy, since I like having the games as objects, but not so unhappy that I wouldn't purchase a game that's interesting me.

3. Yes, if the additional charge isn't outrageous, of course.

4. No limit.

5. Not to me. I don't care about the size.

6. No.

7. No. Not interested in casual games. Playing games is a "serious" activity for me.

8. Nope, it's not my cup of tea.

[bysmitty]

1.) $20 is an adequit amount for 4-6 hrs of quality gameplay for me. I think adventure gamers have been spoiled on years of low cost games. We are demanding better games but whine at the cost of producing them.

2.) I rather enjoy the immediate satisfaction of buying downloadable games.

3.) I like the idea of paying extra for a physical format but I would recommend the download be made available to the people who choose this option. That way the customer can download and play the game right away and still get the pysical media later.

4.) No size would put me off downloading a game.

5.) I can't see why there would be much relation between style of game and download size.

6.) Yes I have paid and downloaded from a few other genres. rpg and puzzle

7.) No I don't play any casual games beside on my cell phone.

8.) Other thoughts. As much as I love adding to my game box collection, I really support the idea of smaller developers being able to publish their games directly and be able to keep more of their earnings.

Thx for taking the time to consult and listen to the community on the subject. I'm really looking forward to Juniper Cresent, best of luck.

...bysmitty

[jaap]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
Depends on the quality of the gameplay, you can easily extend the playtime with a maze or a ridiculously difficult puzzle, but that's not fair.
I would say that $20 is reasonable, however I think it would be nice if people who bought the first episode get some discount for the second.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
Although I'm a collector of boxes, I prefer adventure games distributed through internet over cancelled / not released cool adventure games.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
Yes, but I might wait untill a collectors edition comes out for all episodes.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
>1Gb

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
A text adventure is probably small
I only care about AGs, so I cannot give a decent answer for this one.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
No

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
You mean those silly puzzlegames from popcap? I've never paid foir those neither.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
I's OK since a lot of money is not wasted on the package and distribution, and therefore de devoloper gets more money to continue its work.
However, if the game is a succes, a boxed copy would be cool.


Jaap

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by bysmitty

1.) $20 is an adequit amount for 4-6 hrs of quality gameplay for me. I think adventure gamers have been spoiled on years of low cost games. We are demanding better games but whine at the cost of producing better games.

I for one don't mind spending 50 euros if I'm garanteed at least 15 hours of gameplay, which is less that it used to be 10 years ago, when the average game was at least 20 hours long, and some could be incredibly longer.

Like I said, 4 hours is not enough, regardless of the price. It means it's over in an evening...

[Aurebesh]

Ok, here're my answers to your survey:

1. I don't measure it in hours of play, but it shouldn't be an episode-like game, it should be a full game.

2. Well, I very much hope that this method will become extinct, or at least won't take hold in the adventure genre. I don't want to buy games I can't "own".

3. Depending on the price, but basically, yes, it's much preferable.

4. No limit. And that's another thing that makes me dislike this distribution method - you must keep the game size relatively small.

5. Don't know what you mean.

6. I didn't.

7. Only if they were for free.

8. Only freeware or shareware (which I'll not register).

[Fien]

1. Hm... when people here say they finished the game in 5 or 6 hours, it usually takes me twice as long. So I guess 5 or 6 hours would be okay.
2. Very happy.
3. Yes!
4. Don't know. I have a very fast broadband connection.
5. Eh... not sure what you mean.
6. Oh yes. In fact, the very first time I bought an online game with my brandnew credit card I downloaded the Infocom Masterpieces from the Activision site.
7. Yes.

1. For $20 I want a little under 10 hours of gameplay.

2. I think downloadable content is a very good direction to go in. I see several benefits in doing so.

- A green solution: natural resources are saved, this includes all the material for producing the manual, the cds and the box.
- No more worries about lost or scratched cds.
- Having a box in my hands means nothing to me, I am the kind of person that rather owns less stuff than more.

For some games, getting a thick manual full of goodies can be a very nice treat. This is rare in my opinion and I would rather see background information incorporated into the game itself and a more user-friendly interface that needs no manual to explain it (or why not a simple tutorial?).

3. Simply put, no. See question 2.

4. With todays connection speeds, 40Gb+ would start to bother me.

5. No, if I want the game the style of the game does not influence the amount of content I am willing to download.

6. Yes. I have for instance bought and downloaded all of Valve's games through steam.

7. Casual games? You mean those sneaky little timewasters? No.

8. I think distribution of games through the internet gives more liberty to the designers of the games. The developers are not as easily pushed around by producers.

[Tramboi]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
4 hours is ok for me, I too think gamers have been spoiled.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
No too happy not having a box and having to manage numerous licence keys and other shit for all the stuff I download

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
Yep! But bonus content on the CD (not gameplay, maybe artworks, making of...) would be nice

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
No limit.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
Of course, in a technical sense. Ask farbrausch

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
Yep, NWN modules

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
Nope.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
We want a streamlined standardized process for buying, paying and managing our games, not 20 proprietary buggy solutions

*Goes back to work on boxed games *

[Mimus]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

Hard to say really, as different people get a differently amount of 'gameplay' out of the same games. I don't tend to take my time with games. I'd say between 6-8 hours would be about right for $20

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

Definitely. As long as the distribution systems are stable, easy-to-use and are hassle free I am very happy to buy my games this way in future.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

I wouldn't prefer it, but I still think it's a good idea.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

About 1 gig would be alright. If it was bigger, I would hope there would be some system to download it in parts, and start playing before the complete game has finished downloading, or preload the game in a similar style to Half-Life 2 (i.e. before it's released)

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

That's a game-thing. Different games have different resource requirements

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

Yep, Half-Life 2

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

I've only downloaded demo and trial version of 'casual' games

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

Not really. I think it's a good way to get smaller games out into the public.




I hope that's helpful.

[dazsin]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

$20 is fine by me.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

I personally dont have the internet on my own PC (yet) so its a bit of a problem for me (i use works computer for this) but when i do connect up on my PC, its no problem.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

Yes

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

no size would put me off in theory

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

No

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

No

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Yes - free games from time to time, like when they released Beneath a Steel Sky for free (i only ever had it for the Amiga)

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

I think the download option AND the CD option should be available.

[squarejawhero]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

For me, it's quality more than time. If the game is short but really high-quality, then fantastic! I think there'd also have to be some kind of replayability factor in there too.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

I'd rather have the boxes, as you have something physical and being poor like me means you can sell them on. Still, doesn't stop people selling keys, I guess. If it's the only way, then nothing I can do - as long as the game is worthwhile after the download, then wahey!

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

I think it's essential to offer this service alongside the download, so you can reach more people.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

If the games good enough, or hyped enough, people will wait. Nothing short of an overnight download would hack me off. There would have to be a way to "pick up" where you left off, bit-torrent style, for those who have to do it over a prolonged period of time.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

I can't see why it should... naturally, depends one what you're doing and the resources included in it.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

No.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Why pay for games you can get for free? Depends on the game, too. I'm not into puzzlers, so it's not for me.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

It hasn't quite proved itself yet on a low-budget level, other than casual gaming, but it's coming.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

Personally, I'd want a complete, satisfying story. That could be one in a series starring the same people, or with threads running through them, if following the episodic model, but even so, every game would have to stand alone as a piece of entertainment. My biggest objection to Bone's length isn't so much it taking four hours, as the idea of it taking four hours and then saying 'Okay! See you in a few months for another $20, unless we decide we can't be bothered, or go bust, or whatever'. The same applies to every episodic game I've ever seen - AGON, Halcyon Sun, etc.

In terms of time, I'd say 'decent length'. That's nebulous, I know, but adding a maze or ludicrously hard logic puzzles to bulk up the time would annoy me more than finding an enjoyable adventure brief.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

Yes, in theory. One stickler is that I want to be able to take a CD backup, and potentially play it on my laptop on the move, so intrusive DRM of any kind is an immediate turn-off.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

Probably wouldn't use it myself, but it would be good to know about.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

If I click the button to download it, I want it with me within the evening - so I'll say about 1GB as a maximum threshold, about 650MB as a comfortable amount, and under that obviously preferable.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

Not really. If I want it, I'll download it. The real kicker's going to be persuading me that I do. For instance, a 1GB demo, even if unlockable, is a different call to a 200MB demo.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

Yes.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Yes.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

It needs to be quick, fast and easy. If I want to buy a game, it should be a speedy process that doesn't get in my way - but more importantly, transparent. I'm not going to buy a game because of the business model specifically - only if the game itself warrants making immediate use of that easily accessible method of getting my hands on it.

[Fairygdmther]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
8 hrs or more

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
Not very happy, but I'll learn to live with it, I guess.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
Definitely.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
probably in the range of one Gb.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
No, the max size is the max size, regardless.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
Not yet.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
A few

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
Yes. There are many in the US who are unable to obtain broadband either for financial reasons or for location reasons. Even though I live in a large city, my corner of the world just got DSL access only 6 weeks ago. I have cable, but I know of several only a few miles from me who have only dialup as an option. Living just outside of the main cities may preclude anything but a dialup connection. You don't want to prevent these potential customers from buying your games. And d'loading via dialup could take days, and broken connections could ruin it.

I also have been on three different PC's in the last year and a half (don't ask), and I wouldn't want to have to redownload the game a second time to play on a different PC. Could the zip file be written to CD? That might make it more portable. I assure you this would be for my use only - I just have little faith in my PC's as this point.

Lynsie

[Martin Gantefoehr]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

I think it should be six hours.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

For me, it's great. I'm not a box collector.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

No.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

I don't mind huge downloads. Should be split into reasonable sections or use download managing software, though. The only really annoying thing about downloads is when a huge file aborts at 98% and you have to start all over again.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

Yes. Prerendered stuff can make the files very large.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

I have a Steam account...

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Downloaded yes (demos), but never actually purchased one.

[RLacey]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
It's all about the quality. Four hours is fine if the game is especially good. As has already been suggested though, it needs to be a self-contained beast. I don't want to get to the end and find out that I have to buy the next game to get any form of plot resolution.


2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
I like boxed copies, but the trend towards downloadable games is inevitable. I will buy games, and if they're only available as downloads then I'll buy them as downloads.


3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
This depends on how much you plan to charge. If it was at cost then I'd pay for it, but if it was going to cost me £10 then I'd just back up my download (grudingly).


4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
VERY large. If I want the game, I'll download it.


5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
I assume this is a continuation of your previous question? I don't see how it should...


6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
In all honesty, not so far (that I can think of off-hand).


7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
Downloaded, yes. Paid for, no.


8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
If the game is good then I'll be persuaded of the merits of the system. So far I've had no reason to purchase a game in this format, though. Interestingly (or not, as the case may be for you), I've found boxed copies in sales available more cheaply than the downloadable version. Certainly, you lose price-based competition as soon as the game is only available from once source as a download.

[Aj_]

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

7-8 hours of gameplay, not many Adventure games are replayable, I'm paying for content quantity.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

If I can make as many copies as I like, I can use my maximum bandwidth to download, I can redownload when I want, and order as many CDs as I want for only the cost of the CD and shipping.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

Only if I was unable to get broadband.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

As long as it's served to me fast, 8GB is no problem, but I doubt many games would need it.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

Why would it?

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

Yes.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Yes.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

Use BitTorrent, it's a great protocol, companies have started adopting it. It's easy to set up, it saves you money on bandwidth, built-in hashing system, you can pause downloads, and it's incredibly fast.

Protect who can download from your servers, encrypt the file so only the purchaser can open it, but after that no protection is going to work, it's only going to anoy the person who bought it.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Use BitTorrent, it's a great protocol, companies have started adopting it. It's easy to set up, it saves you money on bandwidth, built-in hashing system, you can pause downloads, and it's incredibly fast.

I feel that I ought to add that BitTorrent still poses problems for some people. I've never made a BitTorrent download that hasn't been considerably slower than one from a standard FTP setup (I may be unlucky). And my university doesn't allow BitTorrent clients, as they lump them together with file-sharing.

[Moron Lite]

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

It really depends on the game. I'm happy to spend $20 on a great 2D shmup / pure action game that lasts 2-4 hours (Metal Slug comes to mind). Adventure games are different, though, being more dependent on story and drawn out gameplay to provide entertainment. I'm basically with Richard: the story has to be "complete" and fulfilling in the way that most television episodes usually are, rather than a mere broken fragment of a complete story. I'm skeptical that any adventure game less than 6 hours can really do this.

The episodic model is something that needs to be really carefully thought out. If the game is very dependent on story (as adventure games tend to be), you're going to have to provide a fairly substantial amount of content per episode, because the interval between episodes is way, way longer than it is for television or comic books.

Half-Life 2: Aftermath is supposedly 1/3 the length of Half-Life 2, which sounds about right for an episode of that game. It's supposed to cost $12.95...I'd go up to about $17 for that.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

Perfectly happy.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

If the packaging was nice/cool enough, and I thought the game was worth it.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

Depends on how much I want the game.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

Desire more than anything. (I assume you mean, the size of the download I'm willing to accept.)

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

Yes. Half-Life 2, off the top of my head.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

Several from Play First, such as Diner Dash, Oasis, and that subway game. A number of others as well, I'm sure. Came very close to buying Diner Dash, and I still might, but I'm too poor at the moment.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

Allow backups, redownloads.

[Steve Ince]

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far. Great food for thought and very encouraging. Keep them coming.