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Old 09-16-2005, 09:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
1. 8 hours of gameplay is a minimum for me for this price. But 10 would be better (something like BS3).

2. Not very happy, since I like having the games as objects, but not so unhappy that I wouldn't purchase a game that's interesting me.

3. Yes, if the additional charge isn't outrageous, of course.

4. No limit.

5. Not to me. I don't care about the size.

6. No.

7. No. Not interested in casual games. Playing games is a "serious" activity for me.

8. Nope, it's not my cup of tea.
My thoughts mirror ninth's in every way.
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Old 09-16-2005, 09:44 AM   #42
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You know, some sites offer the chance to buy the CD and get the download as well, like Starscape...
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Old 09-16-2005, 09:51 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Steve Ince
I'm not comfortable with the idea of asking gaming fans to part with cash in advance of any development, so I'm trying to work out some way that will enable me to bring my game ideas to fruition. I would appreciate as many serious answers to the following as possible.
Honestly, I think this might be something worth exploring. Some third party could gather bids or pledges to turn over cash when a certain amount of work has been completed. I'm not saying it would be easy to work out the details, but I could possibly see something like this working out. Especially for niche markets like adventure games. I'd pay money upfront if I had some kind of guarantee that Sam & Max would be made as a result.

1. It does seem a bit much, but I honestly can't say I know how much would be a good amount. It would seem arbitrary to say $10 without knowing how good each part is. I've never been one to follow the "X hours of gameplay" model because it doesn't seem to work like that for me, especially lately. I have so many starts and stops I can't keep track.

2. I don't really like it, to be honest. I like to have something physical in my hands. Downloading seems too cheap. I know it keeps costs down, but I would like an actual pressed CD with a manual and everything. A box is not necessary, but would be a plus. I think maybe DVD cases are the way to go, and I'm surprised more PC games aren't in them.

3. Yep. I sure would. It almost verifies that if something happens to your company I can still play/have access to my game. I wouldn't have to figure out where I could download it from again if I lost it or my backup got destroyed (I've had a number of CDRs go bad on me lately).

4. I think anything over a gig would probably make me think twice. But it wouldn't stop me out right, because I could just leave it on over night, or at least for a few hours.

6. I downloaded Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. It was a free release that was at least a couple hundred megabytes if memory serves.

7. Nope.

8. Just to restate that I like to have something real in my hands when I pay money. Paying to download something seems ... wrong. But that might just be the collector in me. I still have original boxes from some of my old Sierra and LA games (as many of us here do). That's part of the fun for me. I'd have to really, really be interested in a game to d/l it without any kind of box, CD, or manual. Sam & Max fits that bill, I don't think Bone does.
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Old 09-16-2005, 10:05 AM   #44
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1. 8-10 hours would be nice.

2. Yes, yes I am. But ONLY if it's cheaper than a boxed version with printed manual.

3. Only if it came with extra "goodies" and the shipping didn't cost too much.

4. It would have to be bigger than what I could burn to a single DVD.

5. I'm not sure what you mean. So I guess not.

6. Not unless you count Pocket PC and Palm OS games. Also, I'm looking into the whole GameTap thing.

7. Not for purchase, although Bejeweled is kind of fun. And Telltale Texas Hold'em.

8. I love the possibilities it offers in the global sense. Being able to buy a game that was developed and released in Germany or England or something, but not officially published in the US. And not having to pay for shipping and handling, or having to wait for it (except for the download).
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Old 09-16-2005, 10:21 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
The more, the better - remember, there are quite a lot of games that retail for $20 and still offer more gameplay time than your average full-price title.

It depends on what kind of gameplay I get, really, but I wouldn't complain if it was somewhere between 6 and 10 hours.
Quote:
2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
Not very happy about it, but I will do it if the game in question is good enough.
Quote:
3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
Definitely (and whenever possible, I do this today).
Quote:
4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
1 GB or so, with my current connection.
Quote:
5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
I don't know.
Quote:
6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
Yes.
Quote:
7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
Yes.
Quote:
8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
I want to "own" the game when I've bought it. I want to pay for it, and then be able to do whatever I want with it - including burning it to a CD and installing it on a computer without access to the Internet.

And I want to repeat that I'd really, really like a CD-version. Preferably boxed in a DVD case or something. Like for instance Moonpod and Nurium offer with their games. A printed manual isn't a "must", but I would appreciate it.
Quote:
Thanks for your time.
No problems, I'm waiting for the TrackMania Original Beta to download.
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Old 09-16-2005, 10:34 AM   #46
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1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

6-8 hours. Extrapolating from the fact that I would be willing to pay $10 for four hours of gameplay. RtMI hit that sweet spot pretty well.


2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

I throw away boxes anyway, so downloadable contant is fine.


3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

No.


4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

I don't care. Though if its too big, then you better have a resume option!


5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

I don't care.


6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

Yes. I've purchased a number of shareware classic action shooters. The only classic shooters out there are shareware - though many of them are incredibly well polished.


7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

No.


8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

I strongly dislike internet verification for reinstalling. I had a very cool arkanoid type clone that I bought once and then the company went out of business, leaving me stuck with no game as soon as I reinstalled. I will not buy another game that requires internet verification again.
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:03 AM   #47
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1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?

I'd rather pay less for a shorter game than more for a longer one. I want an adventure game I can finish in a weekend, so no more than ten-twelve hours. But again, I'd rather have a four-six hour game for $10 than a twelve-hour game for $20.

2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?

Thrilled. See website, desire game, pay, download, play. No stupid going to the store or waiting for a CD in the mail.

3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?

Probably not, unless it offered some other bonus. I think a lot of people would, though. It's nice to have the option.

4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?

About 1GB. Anything below that would be OK if the server is reasonably fast. A bigger download might be fine, too, but I would expect it to take a long time, and that might put me off trying.

5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?

Probably not, although I might be annoyed if the game seems like it didn't need to be that big. (Facade is an example of a game that seems like it could have been a smaller download.) Throw in a couple of video sequences (like The White Chamber did) and the download size will seem justified.

6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?

No, I don't think so. I've downloaded and paid for a couple of different adventure games, though.

7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?

I think none of the casual games I've played have required a download (apart from loading into Flash player or whatever), and none of them have required payment. I was thinking of trying Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates, but never got around to it.

8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?

If you download games, the terrorists win.

...
Oh, you meant intelligent thoughts? No.
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Old 09-16-2005, 12:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
EDIT: Btw, one more thing on playtime - I have been playing Broken Sword 3, on and off, for about two months... usually a few hours at a time, once or twice a week, with stretches in between where I played something else instead. This is a short game? Sure doesn't feel that way to me. It feels worth more than the $20 I paid for it, actually.
11 hours. And that's not counting the fact that cut scenes are unskippable. Without this, it would go down to 8 or 9, probably.
So yes, it's short, albeit not obscenely short like Lost Eden or Amerzone.
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Old 09-16-2005, 12:15 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
11 hours. And that's not counting the fact that cut scenes are unskippable. Without this, it would go down to 8 or 9, probably.
So yes, it's short, albeit not obscenely short like Lost Eden or Amerzone.
BS3 was a decent length. It had enough time to tell an interesting story, without too much needless faffing around thrown in. Crate puzzles aside, I mean. I don't know anyone else's viewpoint, but while I've always liked the feeling of using my head to get through a game, I don't get much out of getting stuck for days on end trying to work out what to do any more. I like the story to progress at a decent lick and remain interesting - to have an environment I can play with, rather than an obstacle course to traverse.
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Old 09-16-2005, 01:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
11 hours. And that's not counting the fact that cut scenes are unskippable. Without this, it would go down to 8 or 9, probably.
So yes, it's short, albeit not obscenely short like Lost Eden or Amerzone.
I just think the playtime numbers that are tossed around are pretty arbitrary. I did not get far in Amerzone, but I played a good two hours and never got out of the explorer's house. Everybody goes on about what a short game it is, which must mean that the fact that it took me so long to do such a small portion of the game is an anomoly... either that, or I'm really stupid. Or maybe, just maybe, that its label as a short game is meaningless -- but no, that couldn't possibly be it.

I generally don't keep track of my playtime, but did for Voyage and am for Bone, for curiosity's sake. Voyage took me 13 hours spread out over a week and a half. If I hadn't been trying to meet a review deadline it would have probably taken me 13 hours spread out over three months, and although the hour amount would have been the same it would have felt like a longer game to me.

I guess my question is, is one experience worth more than another? Is it a developer's fault that some people like to sit down and play in one sitting, and those people expect the sitting to take a certain amount of time? As for Bone - people have finished it in 2-3 hours, apparently. They must have been enjoying themselves to play the whole thing through in one sitting, yet they immediately turn around and complain that the game was too short and how dare they be charged $20 for it. The player has to take some responsibility. If you know it's a short game and you want it to last longer, don't play the whole thing all at once!

Sorry, not meaning to rant. I'm just frustrated, I guess, because I don't think these numbers should be used as a yardstick. If I had to choose between 4 hours of a really good, immersive, story-driven game made by people who clearly care about making a good, immersive, story-driven game, vs. 15 hours of boring-as-hell gameplay that only takes that long because you have to traverse over a ton of empty screens doing pointless tasks like delivering an inventory item from one boring character to another boring character... well, let's just say I'd rather play the 4 hour game, and I'd even pay more for it. Quantity is not a measure of quality.

Last edited by fov; 09-16-2005 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 09-16-2005, 01:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
EDIT: Btw, one more thing on playtime - I have been playing Broken Sword 3, on and off, for about two months... usually a few hours at a time, once or twice a week, with stretches in between where I played something else instead. This is a short game? Sure doesn't feel that way to me. It feels worth more than the $20 I paid for it, actually.
Absolutely, and I think retail prices like that pose some serious problems for the pricing of "short games" or episodic content.

I, too, feel that 20$ for a 4 hour game episode is probably overpriced -- but on the other hand, 20$ for a full-package standalone title like BS3 is obviously underpriced.
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Old 09-16-2005, 01:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
8 hours minimum, assuming that 8 hours is quality gameplay and not padded.

Quote:
2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
I'd rather have a physical copy. If I download a game, I expect to be able to make my own fully functional physical copy without any restrictions.

I've been buying AGON, but each episode is more like $10, not $20. (The exact price varies slightly with currency exchange rates). Each episode of AGON game has taken me more than 4 hours, though maybe not much more in the case of the earlier episodes. The people who are making AGON are working on making the next episode longer because of complaints that the game was too short. Now you're talking about charging twice as much for something that's no longer than an AGON episode.

When AGON first came out they had an online activation system that caused people so many problems that they gave it up and went to sending you a reusable key that would unlock the game after installation. So after you buy it you can copy both the installer file and a text file with your key to a CDR to back up your game. This is a very important feature in my opinion. I don't want to buy a downloadable game unless I can back it up. Hard drives don't last forever.

Quote:
3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
It would depend on the shipping charges and what was included with the hard copy of the game. I don't want to pay any $35 postage just to ship a game CD in a jewel case.

Quote:
4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
Oh... 10 GB maybe. Depends on the speed of the connection. I have cable but never get the download speed I'm supposed to. But a download could be pretty big as long as I could just let it go overnight and not have the download slow down my browsing.

Quote:
5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
Yes. Prerendered games and games with FMV are going to be larger than real time 3D games. But why are you asking this? Did you mean to ask whether I'd rather have the game real time 3D if the download would be smaller?

Quote:
6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
No. Usually I only download free games.
AGON was an exception.

Quote:
7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
Yes. Free ones. Like "Atomix" for OSX. Or "Sloppy Sokoban." I haven't downloaded that many though.

Quote:
8. Have you any other thoughts on downloading games?
I don't want my replaying the game at some future date to be dependent on the game company still being around.
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Old 09-16-2005, 01:41 PM   #53
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Quote:
1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
4 hours in length is pushing it, but I would pay $20 for such a short game as long as other things are there to compensate for the lack of length (e.g. interesting story, fun and easy gameplay, reputation of the developer , maybe eye-candy graphics).

Quote:
2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
I am highly reluctant to purchase downloadable content.

Quote:
3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
Depends on the additional charge, but I am more likely to buy a game in a CD format than in electronic downloadable format, despite the additional charges and shipping costs. Also, my ideal purchase would be a CD/DVD in a DVD-style case (not in the box).

Quote:
4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
Does not matter.

Quote:
5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
Not to me.

Quote:
6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
No.

Quote:
7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
No.
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:14 PM   #54
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Thanks to everyone for your replies. They have really helped me out a lot. I have a much clearer picture on the subject and it will help in formulating my plan.
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:29 PM   #55
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That mean the respondents will each receive a free t-shirt that says "Steve Ince is t3h g0d" ?
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:44 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
That mean the respondents will each receive a free t-shirt that says "Steve Ince is t3h g0d" ?
For a nominal fee of only $20.
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:50 PM   #57
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1. 8+ hours
2. Yes if it's the only way to get the game (ie. game won't be published in my country in predictable time)
3. I don't think so. But if there was nice box, booklet etc. I'd consider it.
4. Don't care
6. If steam or pda games count, then yes.
7. Nope
8. Hardware fingerprint is stupid idea.
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Old 09-17-2005, 12:23 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
1. A number of people feel that the price of $20 for four hours of gameplay (Bone) is a little too much. What would you feel is an acceptable amount of gameplay for $20?
I think $20 is about right. It's exactly one third of what I pay for new games, and they often fail to keep me interested 10 hours. I wouldn't mind six hours of gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
2. Now that online payment and downloadable content is here to stay, how happy are you to buy your games this way in future?
Only because we don't get proper packaging anymore. The DVD boxes suck, so I don't care anymore. I'd rather pay the developer than the publisher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
3. If an alternative format (CD, say) was offered for an additional charge, would you prefer this?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
4. If you downloaded a game to play, how big would the download be before it put you off downloading it?
I might hesitate to download something the size of a DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
5. Does the size of the download depend on the style of the game in any way?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
6. Have any of you downloaded and paid for games in other genres?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ince
7. Have any of you downloaded any "casual" games?
No.
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Old 09-17-2005, 02:32 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
I just think the playtime numbers that are tossed around are pretty arbitrary. I did not get far in Amerzone, but I played a good two hours and never got out of the explorer's house. Everybody goes on about what a short game it is, which must mean that the fact that it took me so long to do such a small portion of the game is an anomoly... either that, or I'm really stupid. Or maybe, just maybe, that its label as a short game is meaningless -- but no, that couldn't possibly be it.
It probably took me two hours getting out of the explorer's house too. It's just a third of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fov
If I had to choose between 4 hours of a really good, immersive, story-driven game made by people who clearly care about making a good, immersive, story-driven game, vs. 15 hours of boring-as-hell gameplay that only takes that long because you have to traverse over a ton of empty screens doing pointless tasks like delivering an inventory item from one boring character to another boring character... well, let's just say I'd rather play the 4 hour game, and I'd even pay more for it. Quantity is not a measure of quality.
That's not really the point. Bone hasn't 4 hours of really good, immersive, story-driven game, or else the demo would have been a thousand times better, and there are heaps of great game out there which last 15 hours or much more.

And in any case, I have trouble seeing how a game of 4 hours could possibly be satisfying, no matter how good it is.
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Old 09-17-2005, 02:47 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
And in any case, I have trouble seeing how a game of 4 hours could possibly be satisfying, no matter how good it is.
I don't. The key would be to drop plans for an epic, world-spanning quest, and look at ways to spend that time more interestingly. For example, you could do a Sherlock Holmes style game that's four hours of tight, investigative drama, or a tense spy mission, or simply episodic content that's four hours of laughing your backside off. Or a zillion other things.

Where it's going to go wrong is if people start asking 'How do we crunch games like XYZ into four hours?' instead of 'What can we do with these four hours?'
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