[gray pierce]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that certain game publishers, media, and even gamers themselves have already classified a title like Tomb Raider as an adventure game.

By that thought you could then easily classify Heavy Rain as an adventure game. Almost every action and decision you make in the game IS the narrative - integral, as you put it - emphatically so because it helps steer the story by degrees. Heavy Rain is arguably one long interactive cutscene.

But...but...but...i haven't played it (for earlier described reasons) but from what I've seen of it Heavy Rain is an AG! It's an AG with action sequences but I did indeed get the impression they're story driven rather than skill driven. So yes, since you just confirmed that I wholeheartedly agree Heavy Rain is an AG. I'm really sorry if I gave you the impression I dissagreed on that point. So just to get it out of the way: Fahrenheit, Heavy Rain, Dreamfall...all AGs in my opinion.

Again, you're arbitrating a certain way - one way - of looking at what makes an adventure game. Someone else could argue that without passing a challenge (like swinging across a chasm using a vine) the story cannot progress. Conversely, many adventure games feature puzzles that, by way of logic, make absolutely no sense at all in terms of the story (a cave door with a puzzle slapped on it in Journey To The Center Of The Earth, for example, or finding the elements to make a cup of coffee for Victoria's boss in Still Life). Yet they're solidly classified, at least according to your details, as adventure games.

So the question I ask wouldn't be to you in this case; it would be asked of Eidos. Which could lead to a dialogue about the idea that there could be different kinds of games that fall under the umbrella of "adventure game" - games that feature no action but only puzzles, games that include some action with puzzles, and so forth.

Ah another misunderstanding here. If a puzzle is there for the challenge than it is an intellectual challenge something what AGs are all about in my opinion. However if an action sequence is there just for the challenge than it's a challenge of skill wich is something that doesn't belong in my definition of an AG. I't doesn't sound fair, I know but it makes sense if you look at it in terms of purpose. Besides just having a good time AGs are there to challenge you're brain. Therefore they tend to have a good story that will challenge your mind in a small way (figuring out what's going on) and lots of puzzles that will challange your mind big time. I'm talking ideal situation here of course

As for the second bit. I guess that's possible looking at games like Dreamfall and Fahrenheit and probably Heavy Rain but the emphasis of the action sequences has to be on the story rather than the challenge otherwise I wouldn't call it an AG.

That's a question you should ask publishers and gaming magazines.

That's true. I just thought it might be good to get back to the main topic for a change.

What disappointed me about BS3 was that it could've been done in 2D without altering any of the puzzles at all. Charles Cecil could at least be forgiven for trying to modernize the franchise but the effect, I think, was only superficial. I would've been impressed if he had designed puzzles that can only be experienced in three dimensions. Instead we get isometric views of annoying crate moving puzzles. Sheesh!

Yes but why would he? Later on you stated that every game should use the graphics that the developer thinks suits them best and I agree with you on that one. After all, no one knows the game better than the one who made it. So obviously CC thought the graphics that suited this game best were 3D, whether thay had effect on the puzzles or not. And I do think 3D had effect on them. For instance a lot of puzzles involve jumping, grabbing on to ledges and shimmying. Try doing that in 2D! However with the fourth installment the puzzles wer in fact also largely possible in 2D. But than again it's the developers call not ours. Anyway, I guess we can all agree on the fact that BS4 is crap.

I don't remember having to directly control Gabe and navigate him through the series of potentially deadly challenges leading to the climax. But some of those challenges were timed. Maybe your idea of 'action' is tied into direct control of the character?

My idea of action is running (away from danger) fighting or shooting.

I think every game should use graphics that the developer thinks suits them best.

See above

TLJ was hyped like nobody's business. I remember a crapload of threads about it in this forum, and in general gaming sites like Gamespot and Gamespy. In the end it did very nicely not because it was a good adventure game, but because it was a good game, period.

Remember, Dreamfall also got a lot of hype. It also got a lot of controversy, here in discussions and at other adventure game forums. Many outspoken adventure gamers hated it because they thought it signaled the death of 2D point-&-clickers. Well, was it the death of 2D?

Nope, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I was trying to say is if all AGs like Heavy Rain become immensely popular than why would commercial company's spend money on more traditional games? Oh and I'm not a big stickler for 2D. In fact two thirds of the games I played were in 3D. Result of not being introduced to the genre untill 2003. But I like my 3D traditional any day. I'm talking games like Secret Files, Sherlock Holmes, Chronicles of Mystery etc...

Tons of gamers who appreciate adventure games don't sign up to this and other adventure gaming sites. They don't care to. But the very tiny number of us who do tend to be loudmouths. LOL!

So you're saying I'm a loudmouth? Then you're right sir I am! Wich is probably the result of being a very quiet person in real life.

No wonder David Cage and Ragnar Tornquist and even the Rand brothers stopped listening to this "small whiny group" while producing their new titles. In the end these creators chose to DUMP the traditional 2D point-&-click puzzle paradigm behind them, in spite of what the tiny number of 2D traditionalists demanded of them (I remember an interview where Tornquist complained in passing about this vociferous group). That in part finally allowed them the freedom to create such games that offered new experiences to us - Uru, Myst V, In Memoriam, Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, etc.

I'd hate to be shared among those 2D traditionalists (for obvious reason) and I truly enjoy games like Dreamfall or Fahrenhiet/Indigo Prophecy. In fact I think they're fantastic and making them should be promoted but not at the cost of more traditional games. It's just like I'm starting to get worried about the increasing popularity of cassual games especially with AG franchises being converted into cassual format. Nevertheless I still like playing cassuals. Loving something but at the same time fearing it will go at the cost of something else you love is possible. But maybe I'm wrong, we'll see.

No. She was already fascinated by pathology and such before I introduced her to crime adventure games. I augmented it by giving her books like Death's Acre: Inside the Legendary Forensic Lab the Body Farm Where the Dead Do Tell Tales by William Bass and Jon Jefferson.

I see, now I know what I have to give my baby brother for his second birthday. No seriously way to go!

One final question. I also asked someone else but maybe you can answer this too. Do you know of Uncharted is going to get a PC release somewhere in the near future? Because you keep mentioning that game along with Tomb Raider and I love those games. And even more importantly do you know if Heavy Rain is ever going to be released for PC?